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EVE: the Game you Wait to Play

First post
Author
Hal Safon
Filthy Peasants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#561 - 2014-04-11 17:40:10 UTC
FYI that merlin fit will be very effective solo but bear in mind you will likely die a lot more (and have more limited targets) than if you had some friends.

As for what skills are important, I'm sure you can figure it out. Core skills (frigate 5, guns 5 etc) should be your focus before you diversify.

The most important skill to PvP success, however, is situational awareness, which you cannot learn except through experience.

Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#562 - 2014-04-11 17:40:34 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:

You can stuff your cavities with hot air for all I care. I just find it ridiculous that your entire argument is based on you being bad at the game, and being too damned proud to ask for help.
That's dandy, except my entire argument is not based on my piloting or inability to appeal for help. If you have been responding under the premise that such were my reasons for starting the thread, that would explain the relative uselessness I've found in your posts thus far. But acquainting yourself with the OP afresh may—may—remedy that.

Erufen Rito wrote:

I seem to recal several instances in which you were told that anything you wanted to do could be done in a T1 ship. That a T1 ship was effective enough to do whatever you wanted to do, but not quite as good as a T2, and that T2 was not the only way to go about the game.

Hell, I even said that after a little bit, you could be as good as the 10 year vet is, in anything you chose to specialize on.

Amazing. You had to morph a simple "help me" into a bullshit fest of how this game is done wrong.

You have been watch listed, I hope you have friends.

News flash: I did not offer follow-up questions because I'm interested in help.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#563 - 2014-04-11 17:41:12 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
Thanks. Couple more questions. If one does not want to "grab 1-3 friends," but would rather fly solo, is this fit still relevant for the activity you described? Also, a what level of skills, per mod, is this fit relevant for a solo pilot (1..3...5?) Muchas Gracias.
The fit works perfectly solo, all modules can be T1, first priority for T2 would be the guns (to unlock null ammo), all relevant skills can be lvl 3-4.

You would still be able to kill higher SP players with that, depending on the ship they're in. For example, you have great chances vs. a mwd missile condor, poor chances vs. an ab dual-web hookbill.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Erufen Rito
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#564 - 2014-04-11 17:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Erufen Rito
Karak Kashada wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:

You can stuff your cavities with hot air for all I care. I just find it ridiculous that your entire argument is based on you being bad at the game, and being too damned proud to ask for help.
That's dandy, except my entire argument is not based on my piloting or inability to appeal for help. If you have been responding under the premise that such were my reasons for starting the thread, that would explain the relative uselessness I've found in your posts thus far. But acquainting yourself with the OP afresh may—may—remedy that.

Erufen Rito wrote:

I seem to recal several instances in which you were told that anything you wanted to do could be done in a T1 ship. That a T1 ship was effective enough to do whatever you wanted to do, but not quite as good as a T2, and that T2 was not the only way to go about the game.

Hell, I even said that after a little bit, you could be as good as the 10 year vet is, in anything you chose to specialize on.

Amazing. You had to morph a simple "help me" into a bullshit fest of how this game is done wrong.

You have been watch listed, I hope you have friends.

News flash: I did not offer follow-up questions because I'm interested in help.


Oh really?

Karak Kashada wrote:
Thanks. Couple more questions. If one does not want to "grab 1-3 friends," but would rather fly solo, is this fit still relevant for the activity you described? Also, a what level of skills, per mod, is this fit relevant for a solo pilot (1..3...5?) Muchas Gracias.


Liar.


And here is a tip, out of grace. Torpedos are meant to hit battleships and structures, not frigates, cruicers or battlecruicers. Also, keep in mind that I like to throw destroyers away from time to time.

Furthermore, explain your solution to your problem. I mean, you have to have one if you dare say we are all wrong here for thinking differently.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#565 - 2014-04-11 17:43:13 UTC
T1 ships are a hell of a lot better these days than even last year let alone 8 years ago. Anyone who thinks they need to wait several months to do something is just downright wrong.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#566 - 2014-04-11 17:44:02 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
You either read what i typed to Jenna Side and begin questioning it, which might result in a legitimate answer, or you can make your demands without doing so and continue to not get what you want.
I read what you typed to Jenn, which is why I questioned it. You have yet to give any kind of legitimate answer that isn't an evasion or an reference to missing evidence (missing, because you refuse to provide it).

You stated, without proof, that he was lying. I'm asking you how. You can't explain how. That puts your claim into question and makes it seem like you're the one who's lying here.


this post right here.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4460042#post4460042

Jenn aSide wrote:


The thing is, it's not wrong


He's stating his opinion as a fact, when it's impossible for it to be known as a fact. Continuing to do so shows that he, and now you, will argue an opinion as if it were fact, which is a lie.

and lying about something means you're a liar.


Further demonstrating that you don't understand.
let me copy/paste the important part: "you are not mentally suited to EVE online as evidenced by the fact that you do so much posting about how bad the game is for new players". that's posting an opinion. You take it as fact because deep down in a place you are not willing to admit exists, you know it's true.

You don't understand what a Lie is either. There is nothing about this thread (or game) that I could lie about. I'm explaining to you that based on your posts I believe that you and people like you are malcontents who aren't suited to a game like EVE, and rather than understand that, you push for changes to a game you don't understand.

Which (as i said in a prior analogy), is like diving into water then complaining of it's wetness and lack of breathable oxygen lol.
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#567 - 2014-04-11 17:48:31 UTC  |  Edited by: SKINE DMZ
Tippia wrote:
SKINE DMZ wrote:
If you can't enjoy EVE in a frigate, you won't enjoy EVE. Saying that, for some it takes some time to grasp what kind of game EVE actually is and I don't think you should give up, I also mined, ran missions and all the boring stuff I never truly enjoyed. Until you realise what EVE is actually about, and what you can really do in EVE, I don't believe you will enjoy it.

I think this is where the real disconnect is with many of these threads.

Yes, EVE takes a bit of time to get into. It's not the skills that require that time, though, it's the player. (S)he's the one who has to figure out what's fun and what isn't, and where their place is in the overall universe. The skill system actively supports this by letting you try almost anything with a very small investment, and in truth the whole “if you don't enjoy the frigate” logic runs through every part of the game.

If you don't enjoy mining veld in a 1.0 in a Venture, you won't enjoy it in a Rorqual-boosted Hulk fleet. If you don't enjoy spitting out 100-unit batches of AM blaster ammo, you won't enjoy T3 manufacturing. If you don't enjoy L1 missions, you won't enjoy shooting any other red plusses either. In each case, waiting to “try” until you've accumulated the skills to do the high-end version only means you come there unprepared and poised for thorough disappointment. You might get lucky and it turns out to be as fun as you imagined, but if it was, you could have had fun with the lower tiers all that time (and accumulated know-how and assets) instead of waiting.

Waiting is, pretty much universally and in every sense, the worst option to pick.

Yes this is correct, the player needs time. If you give a new player every skill in EVE to 5 there is no way in earth you'll know what to do with them, and there is a high chance you''ll end up doing exactly what you will as a new player.. mining, missioning, trying to follow some kind of "quest" that will take you somewhere. Reality is it won't, you got to make your own goals, make your own fun, the platform is there allowing you to do so if you enjoy creating your own story, learning skills won't hold you back there.

Give it time, most people including myself do get that in the end and even if you quit now there's a big chance you'll be back. Look at divine, pretty sure he made the thread about the titan skills being too long or something yet not knowing what he'd do with one - or actually what they are used for. Someone pull that thread up, I swear the attitude there was so similar there, can articulate himself well but just had some wrong opinions and thinks high of them self.

See below, he's definitely enjoying the game now. Smile

I disagree

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#568 - 2014-04-11 17:49:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Jenn aSide wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
You either read what i typed to Jenna Side and begin questioning it, which might result in a legitimate answer, or you can make your demands without doing so and continue to not get what you want.
I read what you typed to Jenn, which is why I questioned it. You have yet to give any kind of legitimate answer that isn't an evasion or an reference to missing evidence (missing, because you refuse to provide it).

You stated, without proof, that he was lying. I'm asking you how. You can't explain how. That puts your claim into question and makes it seem like you're the one who's lying here.


this post right here.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4460042#post4460042

Jenn aSide wrote:


The thing is, it's not wrong


He's stating his opinion as a fact, when it's impossible for it to be known as a fact. Continuing to do so shows that he, and now you, will argue an opinion as if it were fact, which is a lie.

and lying about something means you're a liar.


Further demonstrating that you don't understand.
let me copy/paste the important part: "you are not mentally suited to EVE online as evidenced by the fact that you do so much posting about how bad the game is for new players". that's posting an opinion. You take it as fact because deep down in a place you are not willing to admit exists, you know it's true.

You don't understand what a Lie is either. There is nothing about this thread (or game) that I could lie about. I'm explaining to you that based on your posts I believe that you and people like you are malcontents who aren't suited to a game like EVE, and rather than understand that, you push for changes to a game you don't understand.

Which (as i said in a prior analogy), is like diving into water then complaining of it's wetness and lack of breathable oxygen lol.


And then I tell you you're wrong, and also bring forth the FACT that I'm still playing and will now say have very possibly logged more time in game in the last 3 months than you have in the last 3 months.

Now, you don't know how much I do play and do enjoy EvE. Because you don't know this, whatever conclusion you arrive at regarding my mental suitability for EvE is simply an opinion. And then I tell you that your opinion is wrong, and then you tell me that your opinion is not wrong. The opposite of wrong is right. right = correct, correct = fact. It's not a fact, yet you push it forward like it is.

You're implying you know more about my personal experience with EvE than I do. Such a claim is ignorant and highly egotistical.

The LIE comes about when you put forth your OPINION and I tell you that your OPINION is wrong. What grants me the right to correct your OPINION?

The subject matter, a subject I know infinitely better than you, ME.


Here's an example:


Jenna Side's favorite sport is apples. hahahaha apples isn't even a sport. I know right! that's how dumb he is! he's so dumb that his favorite sport is a fruit!

Jenna's retort, "That is an offensive statement. My favorite sport is football".

Me, "No it's not, your favorite sport is apples. I know this because once you posted about apples"

That would be me lying about you, much like you did about me.
Marie Hartinez
Aries Munitions and Defense
#569 - 2014-04-11 17:50:02 UTC
Just posting in the thread that will not die to say hi to:

Solecist Project..... if you are still planning on moving to Solitude, I'll make a go of it with you

Tippia.... you may not know me, but I have for the most part followed your posts during my time in EVE. Question, how do you do it? I mean this guy is either a flaming idiot, or a good troll, and yet, you still fight the fight against stupidity.

Surrender is still your slightly less painful option.

Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#570 - 2014-04-11 17:50:24 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I'm not your friend, and I grasped Eve within 2 weeks of playing in earnest, despite the shite tutorials at the time.
Oh. Your post made it sound like grasping EVE required herculean effort. Seems, then, that my opinion is at least as valid as yours, since it took me less than two weeks to grasp it.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
You want to very careful about throwing around terms like learning disabilities as an insult, some people actually have them and are successful at Eve despite them.
Well, you know what. You are just as guilty as everyone else here of pushing aside how your in-forum words might make a person feel. So I think a better idea would be for you to lead by example and keep your hollow concern for others to yourself.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Yes some older players do disagree with my stance on accelerated learning for newbies, they're entitled to do so, it doesn't make them, or me for that matter right.
Then what does, praytell, make a person right? You sure sounded confident before!

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
In my opinion you're wrong, everybody has been through the SP grind, we've all flown, and lost shitfit ships while we trained for better modules and ships, but some of us had fun, and we learnt valuable lessons from doing so.
Thanks. So why are you so concerned about declaring the valuable lesson I've learned while doing the SP grind branded as "wrong"? My OP presents facts. Indisputable facts. And it also offers my conclusion on the basis of those facts. And yet for 30 pages all I hear is: "You're wrong. You're a noob. You're an idiot. You need a sex change. You don't know anything. You... You... You..." If I'm so GxxDxxx wrong, how come people can't address the facts I offer? And "Well, there is a lot of OTHER stuff you can do in EVE, in spite of the fact you point out," is NOT a counter-argument, although I have been beaten with it since post #1. Someone just deal with the blinkin' facts, that's all I ask.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#571 - 2014-04-11 17:52:45 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
The opposite of wrong is right. right = correct, correct = fact.

dat math!
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#572 - 2014-04-11 17:53:46 UTC
I wouldn't go as far to say your OP has indisputable facts, I will agree with divine here and go with you're a liar because your lying.

I disagree

Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#573 - 2014-04-11 17:56:32 UTC
SKINE DMZ wrote:
I wouldn't go as far to say your OP has indisputable facts, I will agree with divine here and go with you're a liar because your lying.
No facts in the OP? That explains the uselessness of yours posts in the thread.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#574 - 2014-04-11 17:56:48 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
Thanks. So why are you so concerned about declaring the valuable lesson I've learned while doing the SP grind branded as "wrong"? My OP presents facts. Indisputable facts.
…most of which have been proven wrong numerous times now.
Erufen Rito
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#575 - 2014-04-11 17:56:57 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
Thanks. So why are you so concerned about declaring the valuable lesson I've learned while doing the SP grind branded as "wrong"? My OP presents facts. Indisputable facts.
Haha, no it doesn't. It presents your limited opninion.
Karak Kashada wrote:
And it also offers my conclusion on the basis of those facts.
again, no it doesn't. Its just how you think things should be, aka, an oppinion.
Karak Kashada wrote:
And yet for 30 pages all I hear is: "You're wrong. You're a noob. You're an idiot. You need a sex change. You don't know anything. You... You... You..."
I don't know about a sex change, but you have so far shown that you don't know your subject matter, and that your opinion is biased on the fact that you don't know your subject matter, therefore you are wrong.
Karak Kashada wrote:
If I'm so GxxDxxx wrong, how come people can't address the facts I offer? And "Well, there is a lot of OTHER stuff you can do in EVE, in spite of the fact you point out," is NOT a counter-argument, although I have been beaten with it since post #1. Someone just deal with the blinkin' facts, that's all I ask.

Simple, because they aren't facts. They are a biased opinion, built around your inexperience on the subject matter.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165

Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#576 - 2014-04-11 17:57:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:


Quote:
I still see no issues with a paid acceleration, i don't like the idea of plex (usd) for sp but if someone wants to spend $20-$40 extra per month to double-triple their training speed i don't see how it hurts anyone or unbalances the game.
It hurts everyone because you've just introduced the ability to ignore game mechanics you don't like by paying for it. This is inherently bad. It's so bad that the EULA even contains a rule against acquiring stuff at an accelerated rate compared to normal gameplay, and CCP will ban people who break that rule. They're far from alone in this — it's a standard rule you'll find in almost every game because of how it imbalances and unduly favours the people who exploit it.

What if you could pay to skip the warp scrambling mechanic? What if you could pay to skip the ISK creation mechanics? What if you could pay to skip the damage mechanic? They be more extreme examples, but they demonstrate why skipping mechanics is a bad idea to begin with: because they're there for a reason, and they apply equally to everyone for a reason. Paying to skip them does not make the idea any better — quite the opposite. It just means that you have two layers of inequality, neither of them good.

“Oh but it's just SP” isn't an excuse, because no matter how you twist and turn it, you still make separate people into two rule groups depending on how much they spend. It unbalances the game by instantly devaluating the time spent of those already in the game. It unbalances the game by vastly boosting old players over new ones. It unbalances the game by, as mentioned, skipping over a core balance mechanic, and worse: it only skips over it for some (that's why the come-back is always: if you want to train faster, just ask them to make training faster) — that is pretty much the definition of imbalance. Above all, it doesn't solve any kind of problem that can't be solved in ways that don't break the game.

Quote:
It doesn't quite solve the wait to play but it would surely improve it.
Good news: there is no wait to play problem. That's just the imagination of people who thinks that EVE is your standard xp/class/level-based game acting up. Rather, the problem is that people think reaching level X, getting ship Y, and unlocking gizmo Z is an absolute must before they try whatever activity they're going for. In reality, they can try right now, and reaching X, Y, and Z will not actually change their gameplay much. If they wait, they will suck, they will lose a lot, and they will be disenchanted when it turns out that what they've been waiting for is pretty boring. If they don't wait, they can find out right now whether X, Y, or Z will improve the speed of what they're already doing in any meaningful way (because, again, that's all that will happen).

Quote:
What i think a lot of these white knight defenders seem to forgot is how long it takes to train your basic support skills and take it for granted.
Oh, I know. See sig. What I think a lot of P2Wers forget is that it only takes a long time if you are hell-bent on training them to lvl V. It is also very stupid to have lvl V as your baseline. It is not something you absolutely have to have or you're screwed forever — it's something you might want to get eventually, but which you can survive without in the meantime.

Quote:
To those saying "you can play from day 1 here is a list of 20 things you can do". I would counter with if i'm willing to purchase a plex any sort of pve (missions/exploration/ratting/anoms) become pointless as the 12k isk i get per level 1 mission or bounty tick from frig kills is bullshit compared to the 700mil i have in the bank.
That isn't really a counter to the vast list of things you can do from day 1. That's a counter against some never expressed argument that you can earn top ISK from day one using the methods explained in the tutorial.

The biggest discrepancy here is still the confusion between the goal and the baseline. You don't start at the goal; you start now, and reach the goal later on. Also, getting to the goal will not change what you're doing — the activity is the same, and if you don't start now, you will be completely befuddled by what goes on when that goal is reached.


A wild Tippia appears
Organic Lager uses splash

Smile I don't think we will ever agree on how to handle sp advancement and the mechanics behind a paid advancement system. Rather then go down this road again which i will inevitably lose lets focus on the issue.

This idea that people who are waiting to play isn't an issue because they are doing it wrong is flawed. Fact is people do wait to play in eve instead of diving right into the action (see my sad sob story). Why are people waiting? Because the only carrot they see is barred from them and the bars are time.

I know mission running pve players are seen as second class citizens in eve but let me explain what i mean by bars. I can comfortably level 2 missions, i have the standings and isk for level 3 and 4 missions but don't have the skills to fly a drake. What do? Should i be forced into something else that inevitably requires more training in a different direction or should i log out for a month until my skills finish?

How does playing help me get from my baseline to my goal?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#577 - 2014-04-11 17:58:27 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:



Jenna Side's favorite sport is apples. hahahaha apples isn't even a sport. I know right! that's how dumb he is! he's so dumb that his favorite sport is a fruit!

Jenna's retort, "That is an offensive statement. My favorite sport is football".

Me, "No it's not, your favorite sport is apples. I know this because once you posted about apples"

That would be me lying about you, much like you did about me.

However if you were to see jen covered in apple cores with a healthy sweat in an orchard,( or alluding to said activity on a forum) you could be said to have made an observation.
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#578 - 2014-04-11 17:58:46 UTC
I tried to give you real advice to be honest in my other posts, not so much in the last one. But think you need to tone it down a bit, most of the OP is your opinion, don't you think? I feel I am being seriously trolled here by divine or harry, I always fall for this kinda **** damnit. Sad

I disagree

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#579 - 2014-04-11 17:59:03 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
The opposite of wrong is right. right = correct, correct = fact.

dat math!


Do you ever stop and think about yourself?

I think in just about every thread I've ever posted in, you've swooped in behind me trying to insult me. You even placed a 100mil isk bounty on me.

Granted, I understand you're allowed to, but it leads me to some unflattering conclusions about your person. Somewhere down the line, I touched you.

I touched you deep. deep and hard
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#580 - 2014-04-11 17:59:27 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
Thanks. So why are you so concerned about declaring the valuable lesson I've learned while doing the SP grind branded as "wrong"? My OP presents facts. Indisputable facts.
Haha, no it doesn't. It presents your limited opninion.
Karak Kashada wrote:
And it also offers my conclusion on the basis of those facts.
again, no it doesn't. Its just how you think things should be, aka, an oppinion.
Karak Kashada wrote:
And yet for 30 pages all I hear is: "You're wrong. You're a noob. You're an idiot. You need a sex change. You don't know anything. You... You... You..."
I don't know about a sex change, but you have so far shown that you don't know your subject matter, and that your opinion is biased on the fact that you don't know your subject matter, therefore you are wrong.
Karak Kashada wrote:
If I'm so GxxDxxx wrong, how come people can't address the facts I offer? And "Well, there is a lot of OTHER stuff you can do in EVE, in spite of the fact you point out," is NOT a counter-argument, although I have been beaten with it since post #1. Someone just deal with the blinkin' facts, that's all I ask.

Simple, because they aren't facts. They are a biased opinion, built around your inexperience on the subject matter.

That you are blind to the facts in the OP is not my problem.