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[Kronos] Mining Barges and Exhumers

First post First post First post
Author
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#361 - 2014-04-11 01:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Atum
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Atum wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If only the orca supporting your fleet could being crystals. Then all your problems would be solved...

Jagoff Haverford wrote:
You may start an op with an undamaged crystal but finish just an hour or so later with somebody else's 98% damaged one.

No, they wouldn't, and Jagoff tells you exactly why four posts up.


Then specialise each miner. Miner 1 gets all the ore X, miner 2 the Y, miner 3 the Z, ... Bigger fleet could put different ratio of ship on different ore depending on how much there is on the field. At that point, you need less total set of crystals.

And you'll have the miner "specialized" in veld whining endlessly that (s)he got shafted because someone else got to mine ark.
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
WE FORM V0LTA
#362 - 2014-04-11 02:51:05 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
The yield needs to be enough to pay for a replacement Hulk in an hour or two...


Asking for 200m/hr solo mining in hi-sec is dubious at best. You really think that would be a good thing? PLEX prices would skyrocket! Losing your barge is 99% preventable and takes a fair bit of negligence, you shouldn't expect to have it replaced so easily. The entire point of the hulk is for fleet mining in safety - if you want to solo mine, use one of the other options.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Jagoff Haverford
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#363 - 2014-04-11 05:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jagoff Haverford
Atum wrote:

Then specialise each miner. Miner 1 gets all the ore X, miner 2 the Y, miner 3 the Z, ... Bigger fleet could put different ratio of ship on different ore depending on how much there is on the field. At that point, you need less total set of crystals.

It's not like we haven't tried all of these ideas over the last 2 years, you know. If the crystal limit was something that worked to promote large fleets outside of high sec, you would see large fleets of hulks outside of high sec. The only time I have seen them used in null is by large single-player IsBoxer fleets.

Again, nobody is saying that the Hulk shouldn't be specialized for fleet mining. The hulk should require fleet support. All we are saying is that crystal capacity is a horrible mechanic to use in promotion of that goal. It clearly has not worked to achieve that goal, given the absence of Hulk mining fleets. All it does is add a layer of frustration that frequently results in miners having to warp out to load new crystals or mining crystal-less (which T2 strip miners really don't do well) while waiting for a replacement. The minute this happens, the Hulk loses its "king of yield" crown to other ships that don't have this problem.

All kinds of remedies have been tried here. But even if they "work", the verdict is obvious. They aren't worth the hassle for anyone except mutiboxing mining armies.

Yes, yes -- I'm sure there are exceptions. I'm sure there are those who will say, "I'm using my Hulk just fine in deep null, HTFU!". I'm sure that your best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl whose corp runs Hulk fleets every night in their wormhole.

But these are exceptions, and rare ones at that. This thread began with CCP bemoaning the lack of diversity in ship selection for mining, and suggesting ways of getting players into ships other than the Mackinaw and Retreiver. Adding range to the Hulk's lasers is not going to change things, or make me dust off the Hulk that has sat in my hangar for the last 18 months. Adding crystal capacity will.

There has to be a better way of promoting the use of the Hulk with fleet support. Limits on crystals haven't worked. That's all I'm saying.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#364 - 2014-04-11 10:58:27 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hello everyone. Thanks for the great discussion and feedback so far.

We're making some changes based on your feedback, mainly involving some buffs to the Hulk/Covetor line, the Procurer slot change being reversed, and some improvements to associated systems like mining crystal volume and survey scanner range (through gang links).


We're upgrading Strip Miners and Ice Harvester duration bonus to -4% per level of Mining Barge skill for Covetor and Hulk, and -3% per level of Exhumer skill for Hulk.

Swapping the low back to a mid for the Procurer. As many of your correctly pointed out, watering down the Procurer's area of specialty to give it more yield just watered down its distinctiveness and value.

+5 PWG and +10 CPU for the Hulk

20% better agility for the Hulk and Covetor

-110 scan res for the Retriever and Mackinaw, -220 scan res for the Procurer and Skiff. This is being done partly to ensure that the Hulk has a small relative lock time advantage and partly to avoid making the Procurer and Skiff too powerful in combat. The lock time of all barges and exhumers is still obscenely good.

60% reduction in mining crystal volume.

The Mining Laser Field Enhancement gang link now increases Survey Scanner range as well as mining laser range.

The OP has been updated.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#365 - 2014-04-11 10:59:23 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Updated to the second iteration on April 11th, thanks for the feedback so far:

We are implementing the following updates to the plan thanks to your feedback and dicusssion:

To ensure that the Covetor and Hulk can make use of their extra mining range in group situations, we are changing the Mining Laser Field Enhancement gang link to apply its range bonus to Survey Scanners in addition to its current function.

To make sure that barge pilots can make use of the many different ORE types available in belts and anomalies, we are reducing the volume of all mining crystals by 60%.

We're giving the Hulk and Covetor a bit more yield and agility, and the Hulk is getting slightly more fittings.

The scan resolution on the Retriever and Mackinaw is being reduced by 17%, and the Procurer and Skiff reduced by 33%. This is partially to provide a small lock speed advantage to the Covetor/Hulk, and partially to ensure that the Procurer and Skiff avoid becoming too powerful in combat. The scan resolution on all barges remains exceptionally good, comparable to destroyers and frigates.

The image was just confusing people, so I'm removing it.

I'd forgotten to mention that mining crystals are kinda huge, so glad to see someone thought of it! This will also help those daring, handsome Venture pilots who mount modulated deep core miner II's and can now carry a 2nd set of crystals in that tiny cargo hold.

Good to see the scan res reduction for barges. I could never figure out why it was so damn good in the first place. Smile I see you're leaving the procurer/skiff drone damage bonus as is, which is fine. Might be a tad overpowered for the procurer but we'll see how it goes over the next 6 months.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Darkblad
Doomheim
#366 - 2014-04-11 11:09:39 UTC
My Calculator Sheet (create/download a copy) got updated with the Hulk/Covetor Traits and Procurer Lowslot Changes

NPEISDRIP

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#367 - 2014-04-11 11:10:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1os33ZVJKyRfG3GY3taX0Se25dlTbNOoCLHprP7WoRKQ/edit?usp=sharing

Updated with the changes. (assuming the skiff mid to low isn't changed)

Edit: Hulk is 30% higher yield than a Mack. And the Cap reduction mining link is a lot more useful now.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#368 - 2014-04-11 11:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
CCP Fozzie wrote:

20% better agility for the Hulk and Covetor



I'm not sure why the Hulk and Covetor need such a powerful defensive bonus. Their entire design is that they are the glass cannons of mining.

As for the yield oriented changes - I approve of them. Particularly the reduced space that mining crystals take up - nothing worse than ganking a miner, then trying to scoop the loot and having the crystals take up all the available space in your hold. I also hope to see more Hulks fielded - and as such more Hulks exposed to attack - after this change.


Edit: Question, what's the intended lock time from each type of ship to a typical asteroid?

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

mkint
#369 - 2014-04-11 11:24:50 UTC
Still a bad change. The entire mineral supply is getting it's double-nerf in the same expansion, and for why? There has not been a good explanation for it. Or any explanation whatsoever.

The old Role Bonuses were a good thing. It made it clear that all the barges started on equal ground for yield, and anything beyond that was all skills. I have EFT, and know how to use it. It's not my problem, but it was a useful statistic for new players. Whereas the old instructions to new players were "all barges start at the same rate and the rest is skills" the new instructions is "screw you, figure it out your own damned selves." No wonder your new player retention sucks so bad, given your attitude towards them.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#370 - 2014-04-11 11:46:49 UTC
Any chance of including a mining drone enhancement for the skiff and procurer with the damage and HP bonus?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#371 - 2014-04-11 11:50:25 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Any chance of including a mining drone enhancement for the skiff and procurer with the damage and HP bonus?


We considered that, but to make it balanced we'd need to nerf the strip miner yield on those ships, which isn't ideal.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Yato Shihari
Perkone
Caldari State
#372 - 2014-04-11 12:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Yato Shihari
I use my Procurer in low-sec primarily because the rats can do a lot of damage to a Covetor/Retriever with less HP and only one medium slot. Frankly, except in the case of solo frigates maybe (vs Procurer), any of the three mining barges are as good as dead if I get scrammed.

However, it looks like the Retriever and Procurer will still have the same approximate yield (+9% on the Retriever because of the extra MLU as usual), so I'm hoping mineral prices will adjust accordingly. I suppose the extra drones will help too, as I can pop in some mining drones to help with yield while having combat backups.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#373 - 2014-04-11 12:20:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Atum
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Atum wrote:

Then specialise each miner. Miner 1 gets all the ore X, miner 2 the Y, miner 3 the Z, ... Bigger fleet could put different ratio of ship on different ore depending on how much there is on the field. At that point, you need less total set of crystals.

It's not like we haven't tried all of these ideas over the last 2 years, you know. If the crystal limit was something that worked to promote large fleets outside of high sec, you would see large fleets of hulks outside of high sec. The only time I have seen them used in null is by large single-player IsBoxer fleets..

That wasn't me... that was Frostys.

Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Yes, yes -- I'm sure there are exceptions. I'm sure there are those who will say, "I'm using my Hulk just fine in deep null, HTFU!". I'm sure that your best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl whose corp runs Hulk fleets every night in their wormhole.

There's a corp that runs large mining ops? Do they pay? Actually, deep null is about the only place I'd expect to see Cov/Hulks in any great number... oceans of blue surrounding and plenty of intel channels.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Stuff

\o/

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I'm not sure why the Hulk and Covetor need such a powerful defensive bonus. Their entire design is that they are the glass cannons of mining.

I'm guessing the thought ran something along the lines of "Proc/Skiff can super tank, Ret/Mack can tank well enough as well, so we'll give Cov/Hulk the Monty Python defense... RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!!
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#374 - 2014-04-11 12:28:23 UTC
Atum wrote:

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I'm not sure why the Hulk and Covetor need such a powerful defensive bonus. Their entire design is that they are the glass cannons of mining.

I'm guessing the thought ran something along the lines of "Proc/Skiff can super tank, Ret/Mack can tank well enough as well, so we'll give Cov/Hulk the Monty Python defense... RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!!



Their defence should be in the form of vigilance before hostiles are on grid with you.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#375 - 2014-04-11 12:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Kolonko
Fozzie. I have question that touches exhumers and also all other T2 ship in the game and have been puzzling me for years now.

Is there a specific reason why bonuses on T2 ships are splitted to both: T1 and T2 hull skill?

Apart from corner cases where player looses his lvl 5 skill for T1 hull (therefore loosing abity to fly that ship anyway) this is always lvl 5. So i think it should be presented in traits tab as flat bonus. 25% to damage instead of 5% per hull level for example.

Maybe there is good reason for this, but the way i see it just adds needles complexity when comparing and evaluating ships by adding more math where it should not be needed.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#376 - 2014-04-11 12:47:06 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Atum wrote:

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I'm not sure why the Hulk and Covetor need such a powerful defensive bonus. Their entire design is that they are the glass cannons of mining.

I'm guessing the thought ran something along the lines of "Proc/Skiff can super tank, Ret/Mack can tank well enough as well, so we'll give Cov/Hulk the Monty Python defense... RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!!



Their defence should be in the form of vigilance before hostiles are on grid with you.

It is... but when your align time is measured in weeks (well, ok, just shy of 25s base), every little bit helps. That, and intys are getting a huge buff with the warp mechanic changes, so while it used to be that beginning the align/warp process when someone showed up in local was enough, now there's a fair shot you'll have to start it while the hostile is still a jump or two away, just to be sure.
Dave Stark
#377 - 2014-04-11 13:01:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Any chance of including a mining drone enhancement for the skiff and procurer with the damage and HP bonus?


We considered that, but to make it balanced we'd need to nerf the strip miner yield on those ships, which isn't ideal.


but you did, by reversing the slot lay out.
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#378 - 2014-04-11 13:26:24 UTC
Thanks for keeping the Proc the same!

Didn't want to loose my tank to fit a long point in my PVP fit!

I'd love to have a second utility highslot!

...

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#379 - 2014-04-11 13:29:23 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Any chance of including a mining drone enhancement for the skiff and procurer with the damage and HP bonus?


We considered that, but to make it balanced we'd need to nerf the strip miner yield on those ships, which isn't ideal.


but you did, by reversing the slot lay out.


And the yield on the Mack is still too damned high.
Guth'Alak
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#380 - 2014-04-11 13:36:45 UTC
give exhumers a slot for cov ops cloak so miners feel more encouraged to leave high sec and use of those empty asteroid fields in low and null sec.