These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Hauling mining products from deep null-sec

Author
Sonija Pator
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-04-08 05:44:19 UTC
Hello!

I'm interested in Null-Sec JF hauling. But before I take any steps in that direction, I need to find out information about it, perhaps with the help of you fine gentlemen reading this. Currently I don't know much at all... Practically nothing.

1) Let's say a renting mining corporation wants to haul mining products from the ass-end of space, in someplace like Branch, Cobalt Edge, Period Basis, or Omist. How do they go about transporting and selling their products in high-sec at present?

2) What kind of costs factor in? Such as the hauler's incentive, the number of players needed to make the trip, the fuel, etc? Are there any common factors unrelated to ISK?

3) How does range affect shipping costs, in practice? Is it a reflection of manpower needed, or complication, or fuel, or time, or other factors?

4) Is there an outsized benefit to be had from one-hop trips? Or is there an optimal situation to be found, in order to make freight easier or cheaper? As length get's longer(or some other complicating factor), are there points where costs increase non-linearly, a point where costs start to balloon?

5) Can a Rorqual work in the place of a JF, for potential benefit? For un-refined mining products, for example. How might that be different? Are there different situation requirements, such as a practical range constraint?

6) Are there any numbers out there for me to chew on, to plug into a spreadsheet and multiply by other numbers? Or tools, or resources to fill out this information-space? Prior to possessing any first-hand experience, is it possible for me to conjure some numbers, in order to find out what sort of profits and costs are involved? I'd like to do homework before actually getting involved.


Thanks everyone!
xPredat0rz
Grey Templars
DARKNESS.
#2 - 2014-04-08 07:18:10 UTC
Sonija Pator wrote:
Hello!

I'm interested in Null-Sec JF hauling. But before I take any steps in that direction, I need to find out information about it, perhaps with the help of you fine gentlemen reading this. Currently I don't know much at all... Practically nothing.

1) Let's say a renting mining corporation wants to haul mining products from the ass-end of space, in someplace like Branch, Cobalt Edge, Period Basis, or Omist. How do they go about transporting and selling their products in high-sec at present?

2) What kind of costs factor in? Such as the hauler's incentive, the number of players needed to make the trip, the fuel, etc? Are there any common factors unrelated to ISK?

3) How does range affect shipping costs, in practice? Is it a reflection of manpower needed, or complication, or fuel, or time, or other factors?

4) Is there an outsized benefit to be had from one-hop trips? Or is there an optimal situation to be found, in order to make freight easier or cheaper? As length get's longer(or some other complicating factor), are there points where costs increase non-linearly, a point where costs start to balloon?

5) Can a Rorqual work in the place of a JF, for potential benefit? For un-refined mining products, for example. How might that be different? Are there different situation requirements, such as a practical range constraint?

6) Are there any numbers out there for me to chew on, to plug into a spreadsheet and multiply by other numbers? Or tools, or resources to fill out this information-space? Prior to possessing any first-hand experience, is it possible for me to conjure some numbers, in order to find out what sort of profits and costs are involved? I'd like to do homework before actually getting involved.


Thanks everyone!


1. If what ever you are hauling out is not compressed it isnt worth your time.

2. Somewhere like Branch is 4 JF jumps. In potentially hostile space. Costs for a full jf can run 100m each way

3. Longer range= greater fuel costs

4.further distantace always costs more. Also you need to carry more fuel which is less space in the jf

5. No. You cant get it into high sec which means either risking a freighter into low sec or doing a dozen industrial runs. Either of which increases your risks of dying and not making anything.

6. Most null sec transports are something like 300 isk/m3 + 10m as a default. so 100k or ore products will cost 40m to haul.

Best but is to find a local buyer and sell to them for cap/super cap production.
Sonija Pator
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-04-08 07:44:22 UTC
Thank you for the reply.

Now, my examples aren't actually what I'm interested in doing. What I'm looking for is a little more depth than what you've given, if possible. Rather than conclusions, I'd like to understand interactions, the nuts and bolts of a hauling operation, so that I can generate a conclusion on my own.
What I'm interested in is a more explanatory breakdown of costs, as I already vaguely understand that the costs increase as range increases.

Also, under what circumstance could a Rorqual be useful, in transporting mining products? Null-to-null, for instance, next-door regions or constellations, etc. Does it have a range at which it's no longer a viable option? Why?

More detail would be greatly valued.
Haffsol
#4 - 2014-04-08 10:32:13 UTC
To move minerals in and out of null you need to compress them into $objects then haul said $objects refine them in the desti system, get your minerals back, win. For a general use and a kinda balanced ratio of all the minerals, try with 425mm railguns, 800mm rep arties or bastion modules. All those offer a compression rate of about 30 so you can move 30 m3 in 1 m3 or if you prefer 10.5 M m3 using only 350k (your JF)

Costs aren't hard to figure it out, you can check them on dotlan.
Zifrian
The Pannion Domin
#5 - 2014-04-08 10:48:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
xPredat0rz wrote:
Sonija Pator wrote:
Hello!

I'm interested in Null-Sec JF hauling. But before I take any steps in that direction, I need to find out information about it, perhaps with the help of you fine gentlemen reading this. Currently I don't know much at all... Practically nothing.

1) Let's say a renting mining corporation wants to haul mining products from the ass-end of space, in someplace like Branch, Cobalt Edge, Period Basis, or Omist. How do they go about transporting and selling their products in high-sec at present?

2) What kind of costs factor in? Such as the hauler's incentive, the number of players needed to make the trip, the fuel, etc? Are there any common factors unrelated to ISK?

3) How does range affect shipping costs, in practice? Is it a reflection of manpower needed, or complication, or fuel, or time, or other factors?

4) Is there an outsized benefit to be had from one-hop trips? Or is there an optimal situation to be found, in order to make freight easier or cheaper? As length get's longer(or some other complicating factor), are there points where costs increase non-linearly, a point where costs start to balloon?

5) Can a Rorqual work in the place of a JF, for potential benefit? For un-refined mining products, for example. How might that be different? Are there different situation requirements, such as a practical range constraint?

6) Are there any numbers out there for me to chew on, to plug into a spreadsheet and multiply by other numbers? Or tools, or resources to fill out this information-space? Prior to possessing any first-hand experience, is it possible for me to conjure some numbers, in order to find out what sort of profits and costs are involved? I'd like to do homework before actually getting involved.


Thanks everyone!


1. If what ever you are hauling out is not compressed it isnt worth your time.

2. Somewhere like Branch is 4 JF jumps. In potentially hostile space. Costs for a full jf can run 100m each way

3. Longer range= greater fuel costs

4.further distantace always costs more. Also you need to carry more fuel which is less space in the jf

5. No. You cant get it into high sec which means either risking a freighter into low sec or doing a dozen industrial runs. Either of which increases your risks of dying and not making anything.

6. Most null sec transports are something like 300 isk/m3 + 10m as a default. so 100k or ore products will cost 40m to haul.

Best but is to find a local buyer and sell to them for cap/super cap production.

This is basically it. There aren't a lot of other costs involved. I do three jumps to highsec for about 30mil each way. Just use dotlan. BTw, 425 compression will go away after the refining changes coming up. Low end ore compression from pos might replace it however.

Most nullsec does their own logistics but it's not really that hard or complicated. If you want more detail, I'd contact someone with red frog.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Sonija Pator
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-04-08 11:47:50 UTC
Thank you for your replies.

I'm interested in a greater level of detail than this, though, regarding hauling costs. Also, topics such as what I put in the hold, the efficiency of how I use the hold, or compression, aren't a concern of mine at the moment. I would tackle that after I first understand the cost behavior, or practical manpower requirements of jumping from point A to point B.

Thank you for pointing me at Dotlan, that gave me a small bit of what I need, though not the nuts and bolts that I'm after.

If anyone wants to tackle the questions in the first post, I'd still be greatly appreciative. Alternately, if anyone knows a link that has this sort of in-depth mechanics information, I'd love to see it.
Scarlett LaBlanc
Midnight Savran Industries
#7 - 2014-04-08 12:29:22 UTC
Are you asking about how cynos and jump drives work?

It not that no one wants to be helpful, I think it is just that no one has a clue what your trying to ask!
Sir Gankal0t
5th Element Incorporated
Corelum Syndicate
#8 - 2014-04-08 12:40:43 UTC
As always in life if you want to learn something you have to put in the effort, since you are claiming to have practically zero knowledge start reading, I strongly suggest to start reading here also scoop everything of youtube a simple query gave me loads of hits. The most important tip I give you is that you need multiple cyno toons thus multiple accounts they have to be on the stations you pass by and you need the equipment on the stations witch is a art on its own if it is in hostile territory and it usually is. To get the nuts and bolts join a corp that is willing to teach you or you can do what I did and that was practice on the Sisi server (ccp test server).

It is hard to explain all ins and outs in a forum to a newer player as jump freighters can be complicated

So start reading scoop everything via google searches and you tube or join a learning corp

good luck fly safe
Sonija Pator
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-04-08 14:26:33 UTC
Scarlett LaBlanc, thank you for letting me know where the problem lies in a friendly way. I appreciate that.

When it comes down to it, I suppose my questions do come down to jump mechanics. Thanks for helping me focus my questions, that helped me to better understand the problem. I looked up the jump freighters' specs, and see their range now, and their jump consumption amount.

A starting place would be how fuel is consumed per jump. Is it a set amount, which doesn't regard the distance of the jump? IE, the same fuel amount no matter the distance? Or does it scale according to the distance of a single jump? And if it scales, is it linear?

I suppose that would go a long ways toward clearing up the sort of info I'm after. Thanks again for helping me clarify.
Haffsol
#10 - 2014-04-08 15:52:26 UTC
Don't get me wrong but to me it looks like you're planning to go to null with the junior woodchucks guidebook in your bag. I'd not do it. I'd start living there and using a third party service like black frog (I guess it's pretty expensive tho) or simply the corp/alliance JF service instead. No other choices imho. You'll see with time the volumes you need to move and how often but if you realized how many minerals you can move in a single trip using the mineral compression thingy we were talking about you'll see with a single trip you should be ok for quite a while, assuming you have the isk to fill a JF with bastion modules or such ;)

In any case this should be the formula for the JF jumpdrive:

Quote:
ShipBaseJumpDrive * (PilotJumpDriveCalibrationLvl * 25%) = X ly
Total LY = X + ShipBaseJumpDrive

of course ly are "light years" which is how you measure JF jumps. For a Rhea and JDC 5 it makes 11.25 ly. This is your max jump range possible ever.
Sonija Pator
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-04-08 16:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonija Pator
Thank you for the jump distance formula, much appreciated. That's the kind of nuts and bolts info I'm trying to amass. As my questions are regarding costs, do you by chance have the fuel consumption formula, or some comments on consumption behavior?

As mentioned, I intend on making no steps toward null logistics until I've done my homework. But my aspiration, and approach, is more than valid. Everyone starts somewhere.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-04-08 17:29:45 UTC
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump

that is all you need to calculate jump costs.
Sir Gankal0t
5th Element Incorporated
Corelum Syndicate
#13 - 2014-04-08 18:52:18 UTC
Sonija Pator wrote:
Thank you for the jump distance formula, much appreciated. That's the kind of nuts and bolts info I'm trying to amass. As my questions are regarding costs, do you by chance have the fuel consumption formula, or some comments on consumption behavior?

As mentioned, I intend on making no steps toward null logistics until I've done my homework. But my aspiration, and approach, is more than valid. Everyone starts somewhere.



Thats the easy part fill in the numbers and you get an answer on dotlan as said before get you r info from the web and be damn sure you study howto make the correct cyno spots and practice it in relative safty of the sisi test server
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#14 - 2014-04-08 23:17:27 UTC
For what it is worth, a Rorqual can haul more compressed ice / ore than a Rhea, and a Rorqual requires less fuel.

But a Rorqual cannot enter hisec.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#15 - 2014-04-09 06:17:49 UTC
Google skills, learn them, you need it for this game.

Example google eve Jump fuel formula.
one of the results is https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2180509

Gives this:
Quote:
Isotope qty per LY. Is rounded down after multiplication by distance.

For non-JF: 1000 × (1 − 0.1 × JFC skill level).

For JF: 2900 × (1 − 0.1 × JFC skill level) × (1 − 0.1 × JF skill level).
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#16 - 2014-04-09 19:24:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Caldari 5 wrote:
For JF: 2900 × (1 − 0.1 × JFC skill level) × (1 − 0.1 × JF skill level).

Rhea: 3300
Anshar: 3100
Ark: 2900
Nomad: 2700
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
#17 - 2014-04-10 20:50:51 UTC
Sonija Pator wrote:
Thank you for the jump distance formula, much appreciated. That's the kind of nuts and bolts info I'm trying to amass. As my questions are regarding costs, do you by chance have the fuel consumption formula, or some comments on consumption behavior?

As mentioned, I intend on making no steps toward null logistics until I've done my homework. But my aspiration, and approach, is more than valid. Everyone starts somewhere.



regarding jump distance and fuel consumption, you should play with the Dotlan navigation tools and jump planners, they are immensely helpful in determining fuel usage and distances between given points.

one other factor to consider this the number of separate accounts you'll need to do this. it varies depending on the distance traveled. unless you have a group you trust VERY much to assist, i'd suggest investing in a few accounts and training up several cyno alts. note, you can't use the extra slots on the account you'll be jumping with, they'll need to be on separate accounts so you can have them logged in at the same time. you'll want to have the cyno alts in position at the various jump locations you plan on using and they'll need access to liquid ozone if you plan on using them more than once.

also, be aware, there is great risk in jumping into systems that have no stations. a dedicated POS with lots of defenses can help, but is still much less safe than using station systems. part of the difficulty in setting up extensive jump networks in null sec is securing access to the right stations.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#18 - 2014-04-11 09:23:36 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:
For JF: 2900 × (1 − 0.1 × JFC skill level) × (1 − 0.1 × JF skill level).

Rhea: 3300
Anshar: 3100
Ark: 2900
Nomad: 2700

So it was right for the Ark and not the other 3, oh well, still would have given a ball park figure :P
Ryelek d'Entari
Horizon Glare
#19 - 2014-04-11 23:45:07 UTC
To collect and summarize:

(1) You'll need a jump freighter, obviously. This is a large sunk cost that can potentially be lost.

(2) The JF consumes fuel based on the jump distance and your skills, and is the primary factor in the cost of transporting your goods. The cost factors include price of isotopes, consumption rate of your particular freighter (affected by freighter choice and skills), your maximum jump range (affected by freighter choice and skills). Use dotlan to prototype jump routes using your expected freighter type and skills, to see how many isotopes are required, and you can evaluate the cost directly from there.

(3) You'll need a "cyno chain", meaning each stop on your jump chain has a permanently stationed cyno alt character, stocked with plenty of cyno ships, cyno generators, and liquid ozone to light the cyno. The costs involved the start-up cost of getting those cyno alts skilled up and in place, as well as supplying them with cyno ships, cyno generators, and liquid ozone, and potentially the cost of plexing those account(s) to keep those characters active, if you weren't using them for something else.

The amount of liquid ozone consumed depends on the cyno alt's cyno theory skill, but is otherwise fixed. If your cyno alt has cyno III, you can use a T1 frigate with at least 140m3 cargo space to light the cyno. If he has cyno IV, and is not Amarr, then he can use his rookie ship to light the cyno (and thus no ship supply is necessary). Due to the smaller cargohold of the Impairor, Amarr characters need either cyno V or an expanded cargohold to carry enough loz to light the cyno.

Anticipate losing each cyno ship (and pod/medclone) as part of the jump, as passing neuts love nothing better than wrecking a cyno. If your cyno survives, then it's just gravy. You'll also need to periodically resupply your chain with ships, cyno gens, and loz.

Yes, that means you need a separate character for each stop on the chain, and no, none of those characters can be on the same account as the JF pilot, since they'll need to be online simultaneously to fleet up. If you always make JF runs infrequently (such as a regularly scheduled run every 2-3 days) you might be able to get away with 1 cyno alt per two stations by using jump clones, but that seems dodgy because you'd then be unable to respond to changing conditions and make runs more frequently than your alts' jump clone timers allow.

Furthermore, you'll probably want to have alternate chains in place in case your primary route is hot, camped, or changes hands suddenly.

(4) You'll need to have friendly standing with the owners of the systems in your chain, including station access. Alternately (very alternately) you can put up a POS... which is an inferior method for many reasons, and quite expensive if that's all you're using it for (plus it's likely to get attacked by the locals). Additionally, the system in question will have to not be cyno jammed, which some alliances do for some of their important systems. Cost factors vary: in practice you pretty much need to be part of the alliance or coalition that owns the stations, or in the case of NPC nullsec regions, be blue to the main residents of the system. In theory you could pay for such access, but be very very wary.

Do note that #4 is not optional. Attempting to jump through hostile space without station access is a nearly guaranteed way to lose your JF in short order. The reason is that your JF needs to regain capacitor between jumps, and will be a sitting duck out in space. It needs to dock at a station in order to refresh cap, not to mention safety reasons. The proper placement of a cyno is such that the JF lands directly within docking range of the station, but without bouncing off into space, and takes a little research and practice to get right.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2014-04-12 00:45:38 UTC
My 2 suggestions are:

Check if your corp or alliance has a JF service. It may not be the cheapest method but it is convenient. Spend more time mining rather than hauling.

If you just want to move ore (especially considering upcoming summer changes) a rorqual can fit more ore and compress t while providing other benefits that a JF does not. I would suggest training for that. Now if you ship things other than ore in large volumes (like ships/modules or PI) then a JF may be the better solution. A cargo rigged/fitted rorqual can get a little less than half of a JF in normal cargo+fleet hangar.
12Next page