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New Grief Play Rules?

First post First post
Author
Kyperion
#101 - 2014-04-10 04:28:37 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Baneken wrote:
Oh dear, the old "because I shoot them they learn" -argument. Roll




Actually it does work. Beat on your children, smack them around when they give lip and give them a good thrashing occasionally even if they do nothing wrong and they will grow up to beat on their own children, smack them around when they give lip and give them a good thrashing occasionally even if they do nothing wrong

And thus the ever increasing douchebaggery of the general EVE community and the worsening reputation of EVE online, and its players.

Dickheads breeding Dickheads.
NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
#102 - 2014-04-10 04:33:52 UTC
Precentor Saggitus wrote:
For those of you who've determined that the best way to "learn noobs" is by killing them, have you tried ever, well you know. Taking hem as an apprentice, recruited them? Trained them by offering well just advice?

Nah, of course not, that would be constructive, and that's looked down upon by the players who "know" the rules.Roll


I think you would be surprised over how many people actually do this.

Say that someone blows up a new player, and the new player then contacts the person who killed them and avoid doing the following things;

1. Whine about how you killed them.
2. Yell at them because they are such naughty naughty people.
3. Demand that you reimburse their ship.
4. Threaten to report you.
5. Threaten you in real life.
6. Scream about how you done with the game and EVE will die because of nasty people like the person who blew them up.

chances are high that the person who just blew them up will take some time and explain what they did wrong, give them advice on how to avoid it in the future, forward them to suitable corporations if they seem interested in leaving their current one/are in an NPC corp, invite them to hang out in their own public channels, and potentially invite them to join their own corp.
In simple words, have a good attitude, be polite and show some respect, and they will often show the same respect towards you.

Oddly enough even the pirates enjoy new players (and not just the kill mails they generate Lol )

One of the best examples of this is Cannibal Kane who has war decced more noob corporations then im sure he can count, and then instead of sitting laughing at them (even if im sure he does some of that as well) he gives them advice on everything from how to fit their ships to how to operate during war decs.

That naughty pirate has most likely made sure that quite a few people have managed to withstand their first "real" war dec where the purpose is nothing but trying to make them miserable Big smile
Precentor Saggitus
Planet Express Transport
#103 - 2014-04-10 04:38:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Because those ships are free, everyone has one and most people have a few dozens, and since they're disposable people use them for transport? You do realize, I hope, that old players can and do fly those ships?

Heck, one of the more recent rookie ships I blew up had a 5 year old pod in it, and I got a nice set of implant kills, he had half a head full of Halos. Does that make me a griefer to you?


Yeah, its totally not because they're also the easiest ship to kill. While it might not always make you a griefer, what did you profit from said kill? You say that its done for profit. Last I checked, pods don't drop loot.

Quote:
Saggitus, first you say "I do those things all the time and I don't get ganked randomly", followed by "this is why noobs are getting their asses handed to them".


Read again, that's not what I said. Noobs aren't getting killed autopiloting, they're not getting killed flying without a tank. They're getting killed because its easy for someone with more skills and a better knowledge of the game to take advantage of them and especially kill them when they're in some cases hours old.

And by the by, I didn't learn anything but to run away when I was fist ganked. I didn't learn anything about fitting ships, I didn't learn anything about how to interact, the only thing I learned is no one in EVE is to be trusted, but then I had knew that already. It was merely demonstrated. The only thing it made me do was debate on if I could spend time on a game that could wipe out what I spent time on. Fortunately for you people and EVE, I probably decided on an illogical expenditure of my time. I wouldn't count on most to be of such bent. But surviving is about Logistics, not tactics.

Few people understand the psycology of a highway traffic cop. Your average speeder will panic and immediately pull over to the side. This is wrong. It arouses contempt in the cop heart. Make the bastard chase you. He will follow.

Kyperion
#104 - 2014-04-10 04:38:38 UTC
Nothing really matters PVP wise to me, until Valkyrie comes out anyway... that ****'s gonna be off the chain if they do it right Pirate
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#105 - 2014-04-10 04:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Precentor Saggitus wrote:
Yeah, its totally not because they're also the easiest ship to kill. While it might not always make you a griefer, what did you profit from said kill? You say that its done for profit. Last I checked, pods don't drop loot.

While seeking profit is what CCP have declared as a non-grief activity, they have also stated that:

"players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account... ...The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.."

"consistently maliciously interfering" is different to just killing a pod, even if the player shooting pods doesn't directly profit from it.
Precentor Saggitus
Planet Express Transport
#106 - 2014-04-10 04:48:59 UTC
NightCrawler 85 wrote:
Precentor Saggitus wrote:
For those of you who've determined that the best way to "learn noobs" is by killing them, have you tried ever, well you know. Taking hem as an apprentice, recruited them? Trained them by offering well just advice?

Nah, of course not, that would be constructive, and that's looked down upon by the players who "know" the rules.Roll


I think you would be surprised over how many people actually do this.


Oh, I know they're out there, the people are like saints in EVE. I don't do it enough for various personal reasons, but try to when I can. I'm also reasonably thankful to have been on both ends of the knowledge exchange.

You're also right, there's a fair amount of whiny noobs, and adults who you'd swear are children.

That said though, the saints in EVE are far out numbered by the guys looking to grief other players whenever they get the chance. Been on the receiving end, where suddenly you're some guy's target and he ain't letting it go.

Unfortunately you find these guys in every MMO, nothing better to do but to terrorize the game's young.

Few people understand the psycology of a highway traffic cop. Your average speeder will panic and immediately pull over to the side. This is wrong. It arouses contempt in the cop heart. Make the bastard chase you. He will follow.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#107 - 2014-04-10 05:07:40 UTC
I have always wondered why some people get outraged when pvp happens to them in this pvp focused game.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2014-04-10 05:12:50 UTC
Kyperion wrote:
Nothing really matters PVP wise to me, until Valkyrie comes out anyway... that ****'s gonna be off the chain if they do it right Pirate



Yeah after 10 years flying 109s for the Reich over the Eastern Front in virtual online wars, I find the EVE "point in space and double click with added mouse menus" version of the old school battleships board game far from exciting. I also miss my HOTAS and pedals and joystick and head tracking gear, it is hard to get immersion when you pressing F1 to fire and fiddling with mouse menus. Still its what we got.
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#109 - 2014-04-10 05:19:30 UTC
Its just a healthy normal response. It should pass after a few. I've seen some guys take it in stride but only after they have a good income stream or if I fixed them up with a buddy system plex.
Lady Areola Fappington
#110 - 2014-04-10 05:28:20 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:

While seeking profit is what CCP have declared as a non-grief activity, they have also stated that:

"players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account... ...The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.."

"consistently maliciously interfering" is different to just killing a pod, even if the player shooting pods doesn't directly profit from it.



CCP has always swayed heavily in the shooters favor, when it comes to the "malicious interfering" rule.

I've honestly never heard of a case where CCP used the "malicious interfering" rule against someone purely for non consensual PVPing, no matter the target. Sure, people have been banned for reasons surrounding said PVP, like smacktalk going too far, targeting noobs, such like that.

Pure "I flew up to the guy and exploded him" though, never seen an account action on that. It's even easier to defend against if you have a reason. "Hi GM, the reason I ganked that miner 30 times is because I build barges in this region, and he keeps coming back. Just upping my market demand!" Yes, that's a perfectly valid reason to violence someone's space canoe. Multiple times!

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#111 - 2014-04-10 06:13:34 UTC
Grinder221 wrote:
Plz keep on topic

What do the Changes mean

Who is Protected by them ?

Whats no longer allowed that once was allowed?

Nothing is changed, in that you still shouldn't pick on rookies, especially in rookie systems.

It isn't rocket surgery, so drop the dramatics and histrionics.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#112 - 2014-04-10 07:17:46 UTC
Precentor Saggitus wrote:


Read again, that's not what I said. Noobs aren't getting killed autopiloting, they're not getting killed flying without a tank. They're getting killed because its easy for someone with more skills and a better knowledge of the game to take advantage of them and especially kill them when they're in some cases hours old.



Lol what? Pretty sure no single player in the entire game has gotten more people killed than autopilot. You seriously have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

GM Lelouch
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#113 - 2014-04-10 07:22:37 UTC
Hello all,

I want to clear up some misunderstandings concerning our knowledgebase article on grief play. I'll also clarify the purpose of this KB article and our overall stance on grief play.

Has CCP's stance on grief play changed? - The answer is simple: Absolutely nothing has changed. There are no new grief play rules in place, we are operating under the same policy as we have been for many years now.

This knowledgebase article has existed since January 2007 and not many edits have been made to it in this time. All of the edits to this article have been for the purpose of clarification. In interest of transparency, every recent edit to this article is listed below:

2008.04.23 06:07 - Edit to category relations, this edit was purely a background change for better search term/keyword associations for better visibility in our knowledgebase system.

2011.05.25 05:17 - Two paragraphs were added to clarify what constitutes grief play. "This should not be confused with standard conflict..." and "An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems..."

2012.06.13 10:21 - An addition was made to the final paragraph, making explicit mention of the Arnon system in addition to starter systems, as the SOE epic arc is considered to be the final part of the tutorial sequence.

2012.09.25 14:40 - The mention of Arnon was edited to cover all of the Blood Stained Stars epic arc systems. There have been no further edits or additions to this article since this date. No recent changes have been made to how we handle these incidents. There is no new rule concerning the SOE epic arc.

-

Compared to most other multiplayer games, EVE Online is a game with very few restrictions. As all of you know, various activities which are frowned upon in other games are allowed in EVE, it is one of the things which makes EVE a fairly unique game universe. Scamming is one such activity, nonconsensual combat is another.

EVE is a complex game, a notoriously difficult game to learn. The tutorial system has seen large improvements in recent years but the fact simply is that EVE is a hard game to get into. It is very much in the interest of the EVE Community that it continues to grow and we have therefore, as alluded to in the grief play KB article, extended a degree of protection to rookie pilots, in particular those who're still going through the tutorial. This is not a new stance at all.

The primary purpose of this article is to enable a rookie player to get through the tutorial in peace, to enable a new pilot to learn and understand the mechanics of EVE without being taken advantage of by far more experienced players.

The purpose of this KB article is not to forbid scamming, can baiting, can flipping/mission item ransoms, suicide ganking, nonconsensual war declarations or other activity which might constitute a ToS violation in other games. The purpose of this article is certainly not to forbid combat between war targets, even if they happen to meet each other in a rookie system. We believe the grief play article is fairly clear that standard nonconsensual conflict is not considered grief play.

The purpose of this article is not to give rookie players an impenetrable shield; if a rookie stops doing the tutorial and flies into a low security system, anything which would ordinarily be allowed in EVE would be fair game. You will not be banned if you happen to come across and blow up a two day old character in Egghelende. We would however appreciate if you gave the rookie some helpful tips afterwards, we believe doing so is very much in the spirit of EVE.

There are thousands of solar systems in EVE and it has always been somewhat of a mystery to us why the starter systems, and rookies going through the initial steps of the tutorial in particular, have been such a popular target for can baiting. Our stance on this activity, our grief play policy, was very much formed out of necessity as new pilots who'd been playing for less than an hour were routinely being tricked in this manner before they'd even had a chance to dock.

This is less of a problem now, in some part due to our stance on grief play but also due to a greatly improved tutorial, but it is nevertheless still a problem. In all honesty, it does make us question a player's motives when out of all of the numerous solar systems in EVE a rookie starter system is chosen to conduct a can baiting operation. Serious offenders of this policy may be subject to further restrictions in their activities if deemed necessary. GM Spiral covered this topic last year in this post so I will not expand on that further in this post.

I hope this post makes our stance crystal clear. I wish to state up front that we do not intend to enter a debate on semantics and we will not be defining and providing a comprehensive list of every activity which runs afoul of the grief play policy. The reason for this was outlined pretty well by Nevyn Auscnet in this post. The EVE player-base is very resourceful, it is our experience that our players often manage to think up and carry out scenarios which we had never even dreamed of. Should such a scenario come up in relation to rookie griefing, we will act in accordance to the spirit of the policy we've set in the grief play article.

Best regards, Lead GM Lelouch CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514

Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#114 - 2014-04-10 07:34:20 UTC
I other words do you shenanigans in trade- and mission hubs and leave rookie systems alone, shouldn't be too hard to be honest.
I also think all vets all know exactly what griefing is when we do it even if it cannot be described accurately enough to cover all the cases.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2014-04-10 07:47:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Precentor Saggitus wrote:


Read again, that's not what I said. Noobs aren't getting killed autopiloting, they're not getting killed flying without a tank. They're getting killed because its easy for someone with more skills and a better knowledge of the game to take advantage of them and especially kill them when they're in some cases hours old.



Lol what? Pretty sure no single player in the entire game has gotten more people killed than autopilot. You seriously have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
When would you ever reasonably expect a single player's kill count to exceed the number of people killed while autopiloting? The 2 are so incomparable that making such a comparison is meaningless. On the other hand when you look at the number of successful AP trips you see that on the whole it's pretty safe unless you're gank profitable.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#116 - 2014-04-10 10:01:23 UTC
Griefers gonna grief.

And hide in hi-sec.

And pretend to pvp.

And fist bump themselves in the mirror to celebrate their activities.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.

Solecist Project
#117 - 2014-04-10 10:34:01 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Yes, that's a perfectly valid reason to violence someone's space canoe. Multiple times!
I don't know why, but this sentence has an extremely sexy tone swinging with it.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#118 - 2014-04-10 11:04:49 UTC
GM Lelouch wrote:
can baiting


hi gm lelouch

"can baiting" does not exist anymore

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#119 - 2014-04-10 12:01:39 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
GM Lelouch wrote:
can baiting


hi gm lelouch

"can baiting" does not exist anymore

yes it dose , you need to be something of a colossal anus to fall for it though.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#120 - 2014-04-10 12:31:21 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them.

The Rules:
26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.


34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.

More often than not, posts of this nature are made with inflammatory intent and are designed to promote trolling and flaming. Therefore, the posting of links to kill reports from any third party site, or the direct copy-pasting of kill reports from in game is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online Forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel.
Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)