EVE General Discussion

But read that again. That reads to me like Erotica 1 is being punished for not hiding anything, where someone who goes out of their way to abuse someone and hide it get's off with no issues. Doesn't exactly sound like the best way to dispense justice.

And I don't think CCP are laughing, since they've just lost quite a few paying accounts and have this argument to deal with. Sohkar certainly isn't laughing, since he made his side of this totally clear, he didn't want Erotica 1 banned and stated that if Eroitca 1 was banned, he should be banned too. The only people laughing here are Ripard Teg, and a bunch of people who don't like scammers and are excited to see one exiting the game.

He said the same thing in private conversations as he did publicly. And all of those conversations, both public and private, were done voluntarily on his part. He initiated a conversation with Erotica, in private, and explained why he was on Erotica's side. Then he agreed to come onto our TS and make those statements publicly while we were streaming. Then the following night he agreed to go on Eve Radio with DJ FunkyBacon and give his side of the story, where again he sided with Erotica and publicly condemned Ripard Teg. He also stated that if the recording was enough to ban Erotica, then he deserved a ban for the things he said.

No, you do not get to pretend that he is secretly on your side when he explained very clearly that he is on Erotica's side and why that is.

Yes, CCP has the right to ban whoever hey want, but we have the right to not like and protest that decision. Pretty much everyone here has complained about some decision or another in the direction the CCP have taken this game at various points. Even this situation itself. It didn't occur because a victim was hurt, it occurred because someone with a bunch of followers didn't like it and complained, even though CCP had previously seen it and let it pass.

The problem a lot of us have here is they make no effort to explain where the new line is drawn or how they are going to enforce their new rule. From an outside perspective, this appears to have been that Erotica 1 got banned for not hiding the fact that the bonus rooms was taking place. If the same exact thing had happened but Erotica 1 hadn't posted it to the forum himself, action couldn't have been taken as there is no way for CCP to prove a third party recording to be real.

So that leave a question of where does it go from here? Is the official rule now that if you want to harass someone you shouldn't post about it on the forum where your identity can be verified? Or are CCP going to take the benefit of the doubt approach and ban people with no verification of the evidence? I mean the second one could be fun. Whenever someone says something you don't like, just whip up a recording of a mate yelling at you calling themselves by your targets name and send it off to CCP with some tears.

And Danalee has some good questions there. Since CCP stated they will read and respond to this thread, it will be interesting to see if and when they respond.

I would agree, in part. I don't think it was ever fully ignored, but rather CCP was looking to see how the CSM thought of it (in fact, on Tyrant's podcast Ripard says such a thing, that CCP had asked the CSM about various recordings and this one in particular stood out to him).

Lord knows I've complained about plenty of CCP's decisions; I was one of the more vocal people during Monoclegate from Day 1, drafting up a vote of no confidence in Hilmar. I was active during SOMERgate. I've stayed away from this one because I do find myself on both sides of the fence at times. However, I also have to consider that this was a perfect piece that could ruin EvE Online, and one of our writers at Massively really did try to work with it. However, when things really got to me, I spoke with my wallet as did thousands of others during Monoclegate. In the end, CCP is a company, and thus anything that negatively impacts their bottom line will get their attention. Negative publicity like this is one of the things a company cannot endure, especially when people already have a skewed perception of the product.

EvE Online is a harsh world, we all know this. Anyone who does even the faintest amount of reading and what-not on the game before diving in knows this. It is not for the faint of heart; it is not World of Warcraft. We are the Mos Eisley of MMOs.

I was going to go over this for a YouTube video, but I'll break it down: there are two types of people in this game, really. There are the people who play for the right reasons, who PvP and want to make the game better in that regard. Then there are the people here for selfish reasons: from wanting absolutely no PvP in high sec to wanting to absolutely destroy this game if they don't get their way. Now, with-in those groups are plenty of sub-groups, and Ero1 falls within the group that pushes lines.

In EvE, we all push the line at one point or another. In a sandbox you have to, to find out where to stop. People like Ero1 go beyond that, stepping over the line, reaching back and putting it back in front of them. These types of people are always the most calculating, trying to push through things that help them. In World of Warcraft, most world-first kills during Wrath of the Lich King were done this way, but using game mechanics that weren't intended. The problem with this is that you place the developer and company in a position where they have no choice and must respond. That response is generally beyond what you have seen previously.

Remember, when Mittens was suspended and removed from the CSM last year everyone said that CCP went beyond it's own jurisdiction because i didn't happen in-game, ignoring that it happened during FanFest. In this, it didn't happen in-game, but CCP does have jurisdiction for a few reasons. The entire thing began in the game, and CCP should work to make sure that instances of legitimate harassment are handled appropriately. So, Ero1 began this in-game, and then brought it to TeamSpeak.

Now we're on TeamSpeak. He starts his thing, and the scam is over in roughly 10 minutes. However, they go beyond that. I've worked with Psy Ops guys in the United States Army. I had a Sergeant First Class listen to the recording, and he came back and said that it was eerie how well these guys worked, like they had training in PsyOps. They were like predators, and he was actually impressed, so take that as you will. Either way, they pushed things further. They went from simple scamming to bullying, as much as we all don't want to admit this.

Now, had this all been left on TeamSpeak, what would have happened? Sohkar could have said something, but CCP would have told him what every MMO developer says: they will not accept third-party recordings as evidence because of the fact it can be edited and doctored, and they can't authenticate it's validity. In this case however, Erotica 1 hyped it up and posted it on the forums. In essence, this entire thing began in-game, and ended on the forums. In other words, it began and ended in CCP's jurisdiction. And because Erotica 1 gave them the rope to hang him, they acted. They had to. There was a clear pattern of using these recordings for harassment purposes. If CCP didn't respond then, what was to stop Erotica 1 from posting more like it?

Eventually the numbers of postings would add up, and try as hard as you might the bullying would be incredibly evident. And the press would be ruthless, more-so than it already is.

Like it or not, EvE needs an influx of new blood. High sec knows this, low sec knows this, null sec knows this. the cries for more bodies are rampant, but the players are fighting it tooth-and-nail in order to prevent it. They aren't looking at this in any way other than the very short-term. CCP has to fight to keep this game afloat at this point, and as uch as you may despise Ripard's activities, I do encourage you to read the series he was doing on bullying in the game because it makes quite a few valid points.

What this comes down to is CCP will only act if the third-party information can be validated. That means if you're harassing someone and are posting it with your character name attached for ***** and giggles, expect to be punished. Saying that soeone was a jerk to you on TeamSpeak and providing a "recording" will not have CCP act, because they can't validte the authenticity of the recording.

CCP can ban you at any time, for any reason or no reason at all. You and I are only here by the grace of CCP, and nothing more.

Grief play (source)
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in the systems the Blood Stained Stars epic arc takes you through is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


Where does CCP draw the line between a Griefer wardec and Grief Play? And will recent events change the way the rules are interpreted and/or enforced?

At no point in that sentence you quoted is the word "wardec" or anything approximating it used.

That'd be your answer.

Hello CCP Falcon,

For the quote above to be genuine, I (we)'d expect some answers to our concerns.
So, I've got some questions and they've been popping up in this thread but remain unanswered still.

- Will CCP be enforcing the TOS/EULA on third party communication services, be they Teamspeak, mail, external blogs or forums?
- To what extend will the TOS/EULA be applied to third party communication services? ex.: Is racism OK when enticed by your interlocutor?
- Can we be banned for having an out of game interaction with someone which is later deemed "bad" by a third party?
- Does it matter the third party in the above question is a member of the CSM?
- Will the logs show something now when we put in a petition for harassement through out of game means?
- When someone feels very bad about the threat of loosing his/her ship or some other ingame happenings, are we now obligated to leave them be?
- If at any time a player strays from the path envisioned by you, has there and will there be any from of interaction between you and the player or will the resulting perma ban for breaking unwritten rules be administered without any form of communication?

I'm sure there are more concerns but these are my main ones, a prompt reply would be very much appreciated since this whole debacle has put a dampner on the enjoyment I (and others with me) get from the unique experience you've provided up untill now. In any case, clarity would go a long way in putting our minds at ease.

Thanks upfront!

D.

I've just been redirected here by CCP Falcon.
Out of curiousity what has this to do with Burn Jita 2014?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4428589#post4428589

EDIT : I thought I would also link the announcement too http://themittani.com/news/burn-jita-3-looms-horizon

Thx Danalee but since I was directed here from the Locked Burn Jita 2014 post by CCP I thought I'd have to ask.

But to answer my own question Burn Jita has nothing to do with Erotica 1 and CCP shouldn't be closing down legitimate threads about big ingame events and comparing/redirecting to this thread.

Burn Jita 2014
First Post
'Will it happen?'

.....

Last Post
'Creating threads that skirt around an issue without mentioning it directly won't protect them from being locked.

If you want to discuss, do so here and stop trying to bend the forum rules.

Locked.'

No, just no. You can't simply state that the victim has no right to an opinion on this matter and that even though he didn't even raise it we must take action. That's absolutely moronic.

Oh come on, how can you not see why. It's exactly the same as every other time CCP have suddenly reacted, it's to stem bad publicity nothing more. And no, they didn't speak to the people involved. Neither Erotica 1 or Sohkar had any contact with CCP prior to this. But I know, all lies right?

It was posted by Erotica 1 the time before, and so were all of the others. Nothing is different between the times CCP have dealt with these before and this one case, except in this case no ticket was raised, whereas previously tickets were raised and closed.

It's not fair from any perspective. Basically that is saying that you can get banned if someone drums up bad press about you, regardless of what you did or if you even did anything. An you are OK with that? CCP may be able to ban for whatever they want, but they have a duty to be fair to their customers.

People have a right to know how far outside of EVE CCP are going to enforce their rules, and how low the bar is going to be set. You say we understand what is "too far", but that is subjective. Everyone's limit is different. If I call someone a **** on twitter as a joke and he flies off the handle and starts screaming, should I get banned? At the same time if I hurl racial abuse at someone and he takes it on the chin, should I get a pass? This is a game with people from different cultures and backgrounds, so saying "just use your common sense" doesn't work, especially since we don't know how far out of the game CCP are considering their jurisdiction.

And if you refuse to take on board any other material then go right ahead, but nothing you say will mean even a small amount to me, since you have such a blinkered view. To give you an idea, here's a direct quote of you:
"be as abusive as you want". That was in your post, right? So if I took just that on it's own and refused to look at anything around it, that doesn't look great. Making a judgement off of a single snippet of information is stupid. Refusing to find out anything about the background, prior and follow up conversations and the testimonies of the individuals involved is no less stupid. I have no interest in listening to people who are unwilling to even learn the basic facts of a situation before making a judgement.