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Permanent Ship Balancing
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Muestereate
Minions LLC
#1 - 2014-04-08 14:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Muestereate
As I see it the core of the ship balancing problem, which costs huge amounts of development time, is not about the ships.

There is no such thing as perfect balancing. persuing it is a waste of resources.

The true problems occur when very minor imbalances are multiplied a thousandfold by big fleets.

Eliminate this ability by tweaking the max amount of the same ship to the number in a fleets wing (50). This would force no more than 50 of the same ship in each fleet. when carried into the logical conclusion of blob balancing. Each fleet would end up with 5 ship types.

FC's and wing commanders would be more involved.
More variety on the battlefield.
Still enough alpha if a supreme commander directs multiple fleets.
And more development time for things other than ship nerfs.

To name a few, I'm sure more could be added as well as presenting new problems to solve but I think a core game changer???

Good, bad, impractical, unfair?

Discuss?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#2 - 2014-04-08 14:14:46 UTC
Wrong section.

Also, no - this'll just mean that instead of 1 fleet, you'll have 10 fleets so that the BS (or slowcat, or whatever doctrine) numbers stay the same.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Amyclas Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-04-08 14:15:31 UTC
Are you asking to nerf numbers?

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-04-08 14:17:56 UTC
Muestereate wrote:

Eliminate this ability by tweaking the max amount of the same ship to the number in a fleets wing (50). This would force no more than 50 of the same ship in each fleet. when carried into the logical conclusion of blob balancing. Each fleet would end up with 5 ship types.


Because people can't divide by 50.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#5 - 2014-04-08 14:19:15 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Wrong section.


Indeed:

--> Features & Ideas Discussion

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Good Posting
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-04-08 14:19:30 UTC
Sometimes ccp does a good job balancing stats (t1 cruisers, e.g.), and some others they wreck weapon systems or hulls and after that nobody uses them. Feels like a lotto to be honest. No one is perfect i guess.
Amyclas Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-04-08 14:23:47 UTC
It's not like the super-powers down in the big blue donut run around with 4000 man fleets to squash their neighbours every day... Typical turn out is in the hundreds, and then some coalitions split up their forces into multiple theaters. For epic turn outs, you have to wait for the weekends, give advance notice, or just be lucky enough to have enough people ready to fight at the time. And even then they won't necessarily bring the ships you want.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#8 - 2014-04-08 14:45:35 UTC
Good Posting wrote:
Sometimes ccp does a good job balancing stats (t1 cruisers, e.g.), and some others they wreck weapon systems or hulls and after that nobody uses them. Feels like a lotto to be honest. No one is perfect i guess.

To be honest, yes, that happens occasionally.

Far more often a change is at first viewed as bad and drops from popularity, only to have someone several months down the line suddenly say "Hey guys, if you use it in this other way it actually kicks ass".

Change is scary, and occasionally forces people to temporarily shut off their brain.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ambo
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#9 - 2014-04-08 15:12:03 UTC
Muestereate wrote:
costs huge amounts of development time
Citation needed
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-04-08 16:13:32 UTC
Muestereate wrote:

Eliminate this ability by tweaking the max amount of the same ship to the number in a fleets wing (50). This would force no more than 50 of the same ship in each fleet. when carried into the logical conclusion of blob balancing. Each fleet would end up with 5 ship types.

Good, bad, impractical, unfair?

Discuss?


1 fleet of 250 megathrons in a single mumble channel.
5 fleets of 50 megathrons in a single mumble channel.

Spot the difference.
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-04-08 16:16:45 UTC
Ambo wrote:
Muestereate wrote:
costs huge amounts of development time
Citation needed


Step 1: adjust ship stats by 5-10% based on automatically collected metric performance
Step 2: Change database numbers
Step 3: waste huge amounts of dev time
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#12 - 2014-04-08 16:57:59 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Wrong section.

Also, no - this'll just mean that instead of 1 fleet, you'll have 10 fleets so that the BS (or slowcat, or whatever doctrine) numbers stay the same.



If its not a new idea, its a redundant post isn't it? I asked to discuss not propose. I posted it here because of a broader cross section of talent. Features and Ideas impresses me as ship centered rather than group play. If the mods disagree, so be it but my first thought is that the idea has merit and creates new possibilities so much so that you would like to see the discussion be derailed and locked before it can see the light of dayI see new names, thanks for your responses.

I understand that the numbers will gravitate towards the blob mentality. This isn't to nerf blobs, its to divert resources from the bottomless pit of re-balancing. It will never end unless something else changes and quite frankly, I hate balanced ships. This shouldn't be a game about ships, it should be a game about people. Blob battles should be won on strategy and leadership and the ability to work together.

If you have ten fleets instead of one, you now need ten fleet commanders. for one this opens up leadership positions and another point is that it raises the bar from a competitive standpoint because it makes it harder to coordinate. team skill weigting rises as a proportion of overall difficulty and energy expenditures. Fatigue becomes a factor and additional errors increase the probability of a "turn of the tide" mistakes. These increase the potential content creation and drama. Of course in addition to more potential for errors is a somewhat increased strategic options available. Since force is not as concentrated, its free to split and handle the new broader range of threats.

Though the initial tendency would be to counter with the simplistic addition of fleets, more creative commanders could enjoy broader fleet comps under their control.
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#13 - 2014-04-08 17:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Muestereate
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
It's not like the super-powers down in the big blue donut run around with 4000 man fleets to squash their neighbours every day... Typical turn out is in the hundreds, and then some coalitions split up their forces into multiple theaters. For epic turn outs, you have to wait for the weekends, give advance notice, or just be lucky enough to have enough people ready to fight at the time. And even then they won't necessarily bring the ships you want.


I see your very good point but it is the conditions under which all ships will appear broken when in reality they are not, its the blob that's broken because the concentration of force is only limited by server capacity. It may dilute the blob doctrine but only large imbalances between ships would command developer attention. For the smaller fleets and operations, I would think this is a minor adjustment. For instance a Bash could still bring in 200 dreads, fifty of each. Consideration of each type would need done instead of just the easy way out of fitting all the same, essentially turning us all into a bunch of drones. Same with BS's. Ranges could be matched pretty close and they could be made to work together. The other 50 in a fleet? tackle ewar, logistics etc?
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#14 - 2014-04-08 17:13:31 UTC
I'll start undusting my drakes I guess
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#15 - 2014-04-08 17:18:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Strangest proposition I have heard to this date and it would not make game any better than it is now. You will provide element of chaos,it will be evaded by players, numbers will not drop, it will be still a blob but with 50 man fleets.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#16 - 2014-04-08 17:24:22 UTC
It would be nice when ships get reblanced if they would keep the fluff a little more up to date, something like;

Mk VII Caracal
"In response to issues surrounding onboard systems, Caldari engineers decided to finally upgrade the targetting and tracking systems of the CC-17 Caracal, resulting in the Mk VII type launched in YC 113...."

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#17 - 2014-04-08 18:24:12 UTC
Crap, I wish our ships had model years where the stats and skins of the old models were intact. I don't know about the caracal though as far as ship variations over the years but I sure would like an old drake or hurricane or Absolution.

But I digress. The people that can oly see as far as an increased number of fleets in larger battles? I'd like to ask you to look a bit further than that consequence. I'm asking you to look at the next set of consequences and benefits of 5 times as many fleets and leaders in a operation. Like chess, look another move or two ahead.

Do not dismiss additional chance and chaos. Luck has and should continue to have a huge part in outcomes. That a particular group wins a battle should not be a foregone conclusion, that actually limits engagements. The individual ship balances had the potential to reintroduce chance into engagements but the number problem has stuffed that.

Chaos is exciting! Its what makes my adrenaline soar. Cold calculaed sure wins are kinda boring. Only a huge mistake turns it around so it becomes a field where concentrated control has advantage and the fight becomes a boring ordeal instead of an exciting engagement.

Fleet controls will become very important. Warping 5 times as many fletts and calling 5 sets of targets, and logistics broadcasts could just be the beginning of a new tool for ccp to balance fight dynamics.

Push your brains a bit further down the road.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#18 - 2014-04-08 18:41:06 UTC
Muestereate wrote:
Crap, I wish our ships had model years where the stats and skins of the old models were intact. I don't know about the caracal though as far as ship variations over the years but I sure would like an old drake or hurricane or Absolution.
.


I would love this to be implemented

+Moar

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#19 - 2014-04-08 18:59:51 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Muestereate wrote:

Eliminate this ability by tweaking the max amount of the same ship to the number in a fleets wing (50). This would force no more than 50 of the same ship in each fleet. when carried into the logical conclusion of blob balancing. Each fleet would end up with 5 ship types.

Good, bad, impractical, unfair?

Discuss?


1 fleet of 250 megathrons in a single mumble channel.
5 fleets of 50 megathrons in a single mumble channel.

Spot the difference.


Need five times the boosters. Don't need anyone with the FC skill trained.

Did I win?

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#20 - 2014-04-08 19:05:55 UTC
Muestereate wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Wrong section.

Also, no - this'll just mean that instead of 1 fleet, you'll have 10 fleets so that the BS (or slowcat, or whatever doctrine) numbers stay the same.



If its not a new idea, its a redundant post isn't it? I asked to discuss not propose. I posted it here because of a broader cross section of talent. Features and Ideas impresses me as ship centered rather than group play. If the mods disagree, so be it but my first thought is that the idea has merit and creates new possibilities so much so that you would like to see the discussion be derailed and locked before it can see the light of dayI see new names, thanks for your responses.

I understand that the numbers will gravitate towards the blob mentality. This isn't to nerf blobs, its to divert resources from the bottomless pit of re-balancing. It will never end unless something else changes and quite frankly, I hate balanced ships. This shouldn't be a game about ships, it should be a game about people. Blob battles should be won on strategy and leadership and the ability to work together.

If you have ten fleets instead of one, you now need ten fleet commanders. for one this opens up leadership positions and another point is that it raises the bar from a competitive standpoint because it makes it harder to coordinate. team skill weigting rises as a proportion of overall difficulty and energy expenditures. Fatigue becomes a factor and additional errors increase the probability of a "turn of the tide" mistakes. These increase the potential content creation and drama. Of course in addition to more potential for errors is a somewhat increased strategic options available. Since force is not as concentrated, its free to split and handle the new broader range of threats.

Though the initial tendency would be to counter with the simplistic addition of fleets, more creative commanders could enjoy broader fleet comps under their control.


More creative commanders can "enjoy broader fleet comps under their control" right now.

If you have ten fleets instead of one, you still only need one commander. You just (maybe) have to spend more time screwing around with your links, which is annoying and not fun.

Explain how there is more "fatigue" and then, if that explanation makes sense, explain why that's good for a video game.

Your just kind of stretching for some idea that is so flawed at its base that it's almost pointless to shoot it down.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
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