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Should eve be more 'Pay to Win?'

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Jallukola
#201 - 2014-04-07 20:21:25 UTC
Holy **** guys! There's a whole plethora of other, REAL, problems and issues in this game that actually are on the To Do -list of devs. PLEX boosting won't happen, ever.

But if you really wish to play games that do indeed rely on such practices to keep servers running thanks to population disbandment, feel free to make an asking thread about it and I will list you few potential games. Gonna even throw a basic tutorial there.

All posts and mails screencapped and time stamped, including out of EVE, you will not reverse on me.

Might come in handy!
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#202 - 2014-04-07 20:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
After reading the explosion of posts in this thread since its move to GD I'm getting the feeling that some posters feel that it's totally alright to devalue the coming on 5 years worth of SP I have spread over 2 characters by purchasing a boost to training times via PLEX.

GTFO.

Malcanis wrote:
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. The secondary corollary is that when new players propose a change, they invariably lack the experience and insight to see how the change would again be exploited by older players far more efficiently than themselves.

Older player currently roll new alts and train them more efficiently than new players do, because we have knowledge of what skills are actually needed to accomplish a task. For a newbie it's pay to lose, they gain nothing, for a vet it's pay to do something that they're already doing, albeit at a faster speed.

SP does not equal success, game knowledge and experience will urinate over SP 99% of the time, doesn't matter if its industry, trade, mining, missioning or PvP.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Salvos Rhoska
#203 - 2014-04-07 20:29:26 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
some posters feel that it's totally alright to devalue the coming on 5 years worth of SP I have spread over 2 characters by purchasing a boost to training times via PLEX.


Doesn't devalue them at all. You still have that full SP total. You still paid the same price for that, as you would have after the change.

Anyone attempting to reach the same total SP as you have through boosting would have to spend an enormous amount of PLEX to do so. Far more than you ever did.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#204 - 2014-04-07 20:33:12 UTC
I see someone linked the Serenity KB of Much Crying Old Experts, the forums borked the links as per usual, I've relisted them, copy and paste if you want a look.

http://killboard.nl/en/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=3 << The main KB
http://killboard.nl/en/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29803 << The Thanny that died to 18 frigates because the frig pilots knew exactly what they were doing.

ISD Folks ~ If Serenity KB links are forbidden please remove this post.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#205 - 2014-04-07 20:34:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
some posters feel that it's totally alright to devalue the coming on 5 years worth of SP I have spread over 2 characters by purchasing a boost to training times via PLEX.


Doesn't devalue them at all. You still have that full SP total. You still paid the same price for that, as you would have after the change.

Anyone attempting to reach the same total SP as you have through boosting would have to spend an enormous amount of PLEX to do so. Far more than you ever did.

Yes it does, it devalues the 4+ years of time that are linked with those SP, my time is infinitely more valuable than the cost.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#206 - 2014-04-07 20:46:04 UTC
If this is about buying skillpoints with PLEX:

Buying/starting, upgrading and selling characters for ISK is a mini-profession for some EVE players.

They train, you guessed it, properly.

You can buy any kind of character with ISK or real cash you want.

It works way better because not only CCP benefits with cash.

Nobody really minds because skillpoints only provide options, not outcomes.

We PLAY for the outcome.
Salvos Rhoska
#207 - 2014-04-07 20:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Yes it does, it devalues the 4+ years of time I've piled into those SP, my time is infinitely more valuable than the cost.


Thats an imaginary distinction. The "time" you put in, is worth, and I hate to tell you this, but absolutely ZERO, as far as SP is concerned.

You didn't "pile" any time into them. Time continues at the same rate, for everyone, everywhere on this planet, constantly.

You could just as well have never even once undocked in them, and only logged into to queue skills, for that entire 4 years, and the result would have been exactly the same in terms of SP.

Conside these example numbers, if the boost was 50% and a year of training was 1mil SP:

A:
1yr
12 PLEX
1,000,000 SP

B:
1yr
24 PLEX
1,500,000 SP

So for double the PLEX cost, that was 6months advantage.

For your 2 accounts over 4 years:
A:
4yrs
2 accounts
96 PLEX
4,000,000 SP

B:
4yrs
2 accounts
192 PLEX
6,000,000 SP

A costs: 1920e
B costs: 3840e

So 50% advantage in SP, but at DOUBLE the cost.

If someone is prepared to invest double what someone else is into their training, I don't think a 50% advantage is unreasonable.
It just becomes one among many other options for what to do with PLEX in terms of training.

As is already explained at length in this thread, it is already possible to buy characters such as yours on the Bazaar for substantially less PLEX than it would take to train it up in the first place. And that people can and do buy those all the time with RL money bought PLEX, that is then sold ingame to aquire the ISK to purchase a 4yr toon such as yours.

The above is therefore already happening, but in an indirect format.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#208 - 2014-04-07 20:51:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Time continues at the same rate, for everyone, everywhere on this planet, constantly.
…and that is exactly why it's a horribly bad idea to allow it to be worth different amounts depending on whether you pay for it or not.

Quote:
The "time" you put in, is worth, and I hate to tell you this, but absolutely ZERO, as far as SP is concerned.
That would mean that a 50% boost should be worth zero extra SP. Under those conditions, I could agree with people paying more for the “benefit”.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#209 - 2014-04-07 20:54:27 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
A strange topic title and I've rapidly changed my opinions on these things over the past few years, but i'll explain where i'm coming from.

I have a good friend who loves the idea of Eve, has played it and is intelligent enough to grasp the concepts of it and work within the structures it has in place. He see's Fleet fights on Youtube and reports of massive scams and schemes and he loves it. He's not alone, I have multiple friends who are like this. The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships.

I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?

Without going into too much detail, it seems like it might be worth seriously considering. Becoming GOOD at eve takes time, but that is also relative. If you play every day for 10 hours you WILL get better... only to be hindered by the arbitrary number that is 'Skill points'.

I've been playing since 2006'ish and I want to see a new influx of players or a way for newer players to accelerate themselfs to keep interest in the game. I've spent years training skills and it doesn't feel like an accomplishment. All i had to do was auto renew a subscription. What i've DONE in Eve feels like an accomplishment.

Perhaps offering 1 months subscription cost for 1 months worth of skillpoints (based on char stats) into your unassigned pool would be a possible way to ensure that old players got the same number of SP for every penny/cent they spent as a new player does. None of this makes new players better at the game or more financially sound... just gives them access to more ships/bonuses/market-opportunities.


wow you are a bad friend for not showing your friends the character bazzar. that and plex is all the pay to win you need.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Salvos Rhoska
#210 - 2014-04-07 20:55:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Tippia wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Time continues at the same rate, for everyone, everywhere on this planet, constantly.
…and that is exactly why it's a horribly bad idea to allow it to be worth different amounts depending on whether you pay for it or not.
[/quote]

I seem to remember you yourself saying that time is money?

Tippia wrote:
That would mean that a 50% boost should be worth zero extra SP. Under those conditions, I could agree with people paying more for the “benefit”.

Wat?

The person would be paying double what you are, to get the same SP 50% faster.
Whereas you can yourself simply train normally, get there 50% slower, but not have to pay even one cent additional.

Its equitable to those who have the means to do so. But everyone has the equal option to do so.
You can continue training at the same rate you always have. The change makes no difference to you in that regard.
Nor do you become "less competitive", because you are also commensurately not investing as much resources into training as that other person is. Your competitiveness lies in lower costs.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Desivo Delta Visseroff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#211 - 2014-04-07 21:03:19 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Conside these example numbers, if the boost was 50% and a year of training was 1mil SP:

A:
1yr
12 PLEX
1,000,000 SP

B:
1yr
24 PLEX
1,500,000 SP

..........................................

A costs: 1920e
B costs: 3840e

So 50% advantage in SP, but at DOUBLE the cost.


If I'm following your example, you are proposing that someone is given the option to spend $1,900 USD for the benefit of 1 million SP............. This is a troll right? I mean, if someone is soooo desperate to spend closing to two grand for @ half a month's worth of training!?!?!?!?!....... Well....Let's have at it.

Sometimes the best way to educate a rich person is to take all their money. So CCP, go ahead and implement this policy. Call it the 1Mill2K Platinum Package.

I was hunting for sick loot, but all I could get my hands on were 50 corpses[:|]..............[:=d]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#212 - 2014-04-07 21:05:54 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I seem to remember you yourself saying that time is money?
No, I said that subscription time is created by money.
And that fact doesn't particularly have any bearing on what a bad idea it is to let one person's time be worth more or less than someone else's.

Quote:
Wat?
If time put into a character is worth absolutely zero, as far as SP is concerned, then boosting how much your time is worth by 50% through the application of a PLEX would be worth zero. 0×1.5=0, don't'cha'know.
If that's the kind of boost you're suggesting, then I'm all for it. Seems like a bit of a waste of developer time though…

Quote:
Its equitable to those who have the means to do so. But everyone has the equal option to do so.
No, they don't. That's why it's not an equal or equitable solution compared to, say, just increasing the training speed and subscription costs for everyone. So, again, if you want training to be faster, just ask CCP to make training faster. Don't invent this idiotic payment scheme that breaks and unbalances a core component of the game.

Quote:
Instead of investing the PLEX into a parallel alt, or a second account, simply use it to improve your main toon.
Its a choice, just like any other, and doesn't "break" anything.
…aside from the mechanics that determine how fast you can progress your character, and the balance and character ecology this creates.
Salvos Rhoska
#213 - 2014-04-07 21:15:34 UTC
Desivo Delta Visseroff wrote:
If I'm following your example, you are proposing that someone is given the option to spend $1,900 USD for the benefit of 1 million SP............. This is a troll right? I mean, if someone is soooo desperate to spend closing to two grand for @ half a month's worth of training!?!?!?!?!....... Well....Let's have at it.

Sometimes the best way to educate a rich person is to take all their money. So CCP, go ahead and implement this policy. Call it the 1Mill2K Platinum Package.


No, you got your numbers wrong.
50% faster, for double the cost.
So:
24 PLEX per year, for 18 months worth training.
vs
12 PLEX per year, 12 months worth training.

But I think the reality of it is its something only very few people will choose as an option for extended periods of time.
I mean its already kind of funny when you look at the massive PLEX packages boldly onsale on CCPs site.

Mostly Id think its people who really really want that one skill that brings their build together, and are prepared to spend an additional PLEX for one or a few months so that they can get to where they feel they are "enjoying" the game again.

The change wouldn't really affect anyone elses game. I mean it makes next to zero difference to me if a couple of guys in my constellation are skilling 50% faster than me, and pumping in twice the PLEX to do so. SP are important, but they arent THAT important. 50% boost for them over a short period isn't going to somehow make me redundant or chopped liver in comparison.

Its just one more option for PLEX use, especially for players who would prefer a game strategy of developing one character, rather than a wide stable of alts. Furthermore its a good PLEX sink, and a CCP cash faucet.

Its really not a big deal, though I do understand the sentimental notions of some Vets regarding how many years they have played. But anyone boosting would actually be funding the game at twice the rate those Vets ever did. Its equitable for everyone.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#214 - 2014-04-07 22:15:49 UTC
In case ccp are actually reading this:, it's a **** idea. I'd leave in a heartbeat if something like this is introduced.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Ms Kat
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#215 - 2014-04-07 22:17:16 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
In case ccp are actually reading this:, it's a **** idea. I'd leave in a heartbeat if something like this is introduced.



Stuff can I have?

You wont last a month without eve you will be back P
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#216 - 2014-04-07 22:17:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
In case ccp are actually reading this:, it's a **** idea. I'd leave in a heartbeat if something like this is introduced.

Ditto, if I wanted to play a P2W game I would. I still haven't resubbed 2 accounts that I unsubbed over the Incarna mess and its initial overtones of P2W, and probably never will.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Salvos Rhoska
#217 - 2014-04-07 22:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
When I said explain the accelerators, I didnt mean what they are. Sorry, I was unclear.
I meant as a SP multiplying purchaseable element that does everything you are so against it doing.

As to P2W, its not really valid to say that a guy who spent two months away from EVE while his toons trained at conventional rate is somehow losing out to a guy who alterrnsatively spent those same two months away from EVE getting more SP cos he invested more resources. Its the same amount of time, but one guy invested more PLEX than the other. Its not really anymore P2W than that.

Anyways, you say they wont. I say they will. Only time can tell who is right on this one.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#218 - 2014-04-07 22:24:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
When I said explain the accelerators, I didnt mean what they are. Sorry, I was unclear.
I meant as a SP multiplying purchaseable element that does everything you are so against it doing.

Anyways, you say they wont. I say they will. Only time can tell who is right on this one.
Which bit about them being only applicable to new characters and extremely time limited did you miss? Those 2 things make them very very different from what you propose. They aren't directly purchasable outside of the game, you can't arbitrarily give CCP cash and receive one, you have to purchase them as part of a starter pack, or in game via the market.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Salvos Rhoska
#219 - 2014-04-07 22:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Whatever Tippia. You know already what I think of you and your opinions.

Still misusing the term "game mechanics" and recycling the same retired, irrelevant rhetoric which has already been rebutted.

Time will tell, and I will laugh when you are invariably shown to be wrong, as you always are.

@Jonah: Those are arbitrary differences. The accelerator does exactly the same thing you are so against. How you rationalise it to yourself that its ok for new players to have it, but the rest of the commu ity under no circumstances is up to you, but I would argue it is duplicitous and represnts a double standard. Furthermore, why arent you upset these new players get an advantage you never had? Again, another double standard. This is what I mean when I said I understand WHY you have a kneejerk reaction, but also that you are making all the wrong arguments.

Have your say if you wish after this, I wont return.

Time will tell, and we can discuss it again when invariably it does, if we are still around.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#220 - 2014-04-07 22:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Still misusing the term "game mechanics" and recycling the same retired, irrelevant rhetoric which has already been rebutted.
Not really, no.
Just because you couldn't come up with and articulate a counter-argument doesn't mean any of what I've said is irrelevant, rhetorics, or rebutted. Nor does it mean I'm misusing any of the terms involved. All it means is that all you have to offer is baseless claims and fallacies.

Quote:
You know already what I think of you and your opinions.
Impeccable, presumably, since you have to adopt all these evasion strategies to try to at least give the appearance of actually presenting something that could be confused with a proper argument.

Quote:
Time will tell, and I will laugh when you are invariably shown to be wrong, as you always are.
Again, you're four years late to the party. I was right as I always am before you even failed to present an argument, courtesy of CCP's decision on the matter. History has already proven you wrong.