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Alundil
Rolled Out
#21 - 2014-04-04 15:31:07 UTC
Beofryn Sedorak wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Your second paragraph describes SWTOR, which almost everyone agrees is a **** game. I am a fan of avatars but their introduction needs to remain close to the core values and sci-fi of eve. Capsuleers rarely leave their ships, it's a momentous event when they do such as a high level meeting or because there's no other way of accomplishing their goals as described in the exploration prototype. Disconnecting from the pod interface is also a very disorientating and disturbing experience which means that it's highly unlikely to be done for purely social experiences.


CCP Addresses the plausibility of Capsuleers being in Dust or Valkyrie in this video from Eve Vegas 2013 (Last October). Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dRlgzE_7FI&index=2&list=PLldrBIEnJ5hPv95uN75sGS_Kwlm7ezUWD

Rough idea of the timestamp of those comments?

I'm right behind you
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#22 - 2014-04-05 01:14:20 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Part of what's going on with Dust is they're waiting to release it to PC gamers until they can work out some of the major issues it has. When that happens, it will likely coincide with a large EVE expansion that introduces a lot of things like the space elevators and planet-side guns that have been shown in trailers and hinted at coming by the devs. In all likelihood, this will occur after the rebalancing campaign that's going on, and will probably include a route to integration and expansion of gameplay. An ideal resolution would be having dust be a separate engine that boots along with eve when capsuleers what to hit the ground and shoot things, or fly ships or S/A vehicles to interact with that directly.

I would also like to see ground-based non-combat environments like spaceports with cantinas you can walk around in...walk out from the landing areas (or down the elevator, if they're actually doing the space elevator thing), and interact with NPCs and players on the ground. It would also give CCP the opportunity to expand new agents and corporations by making the equivalent of planet-side operations and services. I can see this being taken in very wonderful directions once the technology catches up in a few years.


Your first paragraph I would like to see, do you have any sources or is this speculation.

Your second paragraph describes SWTOR, which almost everyone agrees is a **** game. I am a fan of avatars but their introduction needs to remain close to the core values and sci-fi of eve. Capsuleers rarely leave their ships, it's a momentous event when they do such as a high level meeting or because there's no other way of accomplishing their goals as described in the exploration prototype. Disconnecting from the pod interface is also a very disorientating and disturbing experience which means that it's highly unlikely to be done for purely social experiences.


While I don't have any particular links to back up my claims, it DOES make quite a bit of logical sense. Dust receives regular updates much in the same way EVE does, so it would stand to reason that along with technical issues, they're delaying the release date to different platforms to work out all the problems they have with it (clunky weapon movement and targeting, for one). Also since they're pretty much throwing most of their time and weight into the rebalancing initiative, along with the technological hurdles, it would make more sense for them to do this later rather than sooner.

Also i do have to disagree with your assumption about how often capsuleers disconnect from their pods. Along with it being depicted as an extremely commonplace thing in the comics, things like station interaction and technological upgrades with Dust mercs for soul transfer make it completely plausible for capsuleers to be out and about in stations and on the ground.

The problem you pointed out with SWTOR was because they half-assed it because George Lucas is a special effects guy who doesn't know sh*t about running a company. That said, all of the Jedi Knights games, especially jedi academy, were awesome. Anyway, my main point is that the course of action I outlined makes absolutely perfect sense from a technical and business standpoint, and I don't see any other reason for them to delay a PC release for so long. I'm banking on them trying to get things good enough on dust to make it competitive with other FPS games, and have it more directly tied in with EVE. Or having a deal that if you buy it separately from an eve sub you just buy it outright. It's the first game of it's kind, so there's a lot of things they still have to figure out from a business standpoint to make it work.
Grayland Aubaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-04-05 07:32:07 UTC
I would be surprised if they ever release Dust for PC. The reason why you don't see many (any?) fps games that cross both console and PC is not to do with technical difficulties, it's to do with the fact that a PC player with a mouse and keyboard will utterly outperform a player using a DPad.
Beofryn Sedorak
#24 - 2014-04-05 08:22:07 UTC
Grayland Aubaris wrote:
I would be surprised if they ever release Dust for PC. The reason why you don't see many (any?) fps games that cross both console and PC is not to do with technical difficulties, it's to do with the fact that a PC player with a mouse and keyboard will utterly outperform a player using a DPad.



This type of ignorance doesn't benefit anyone.

1) There are players that, while using a game pad, will destory players using Keyboard and mouse.

2) Both Keyboard/mouse and gamepad are available on both Ps4 and PC.
Grayland Aubaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-04-05 09:46:45 UTC
Beofryn Sedorak wrote:
Grayland Aubaris wrote:
I would be surprised if they ever release Dust for PC. The reason why you don't see many (any?) fps games that cross both console and PC is not to do with technical difficulties, it's to do with the fact that a PC player with a mouse and keyboard will utterly outperform a player using a DPad.



This type of ignorance doesn't benefit anyone.

1) There are players that, while using a game pad, will destory players using Keyboard and mouse.

2) Both Keyboard/mouse and gamepad are available on both Ps4 and PC.



I'm happy to be proven wrong - if you can reference a FPS game that allows both PC players and console players to go head to head I will gladly eat my hat (if I had one...)

For my argument I reference:

http://www.techspot.com/news/39738-microsoft-killed-cross-platform-project-because-pc-gamers-wrecked-console-gamers.html

Also, I am well aware that you can get both d-pads for the PC and keyboards/mice for consoles - but people would be FORCED to buy them to be competitive, you cannot guarantee that they already own them. Game companies go to immense lengths to create the fabled 'balance' that everyone craves - and this would be a major source of unbalance.

Like I say, if you can cite a FPS game where both PC and Console gamers go head to head on an equal footing then by all means do so Smile
Beofryn Sedorak
#26 - 2014-04-06 02:23:49 UTC
Grayland Aubaris wrote:
Beofryn Sedorak wrote:
Grayland Aubaris wrote:
I would be surprised if they ever release Dust for PC. The reason why you don't see many (any?) fps games that cross both console and PC is not to do with technical difficulties, it's to do with the fact that a PC player with a mouse and keyboard will utterly outperform a player using a DPad.



This type of ignorance doesn't benefit anyone.

1) There are players that, while using a game pad, will destory players using Keyboard and mouse.

2) Both Keyboard/mouse and gamepad are available on both Ps4 and PC.



I'm happy to be proven wrong - if you can reference a FPS game that allows both PC players and console players to go head to head I will gladly eat my hat (if I had one...)

For my argument I reference:

http://www.techspot.com/news/39738-microsoft-killed-cross-platform-project-because-pc-gamers-wrecked-console-gamers.html

Also, I am well aware that you can get both d-pads for the PC and keyboards/mice for consoles - but people would be FORCED to buy them to be competitive, you cannot guarantee that they already own them. Game companies go to immense lengths to create the fabled 'balance' that everyone craves - and this would be a major source of unbalance.

Like I say, if you can cite a FPS game where both PC and Console gamers go head to head on an equal footing then by all means do so Smile


Your entire argument is null and void because people are already playing Keyboard and mouse vs gamepad in Dust 514.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#27 - 2014-04-06 02:30:30 UTC
Dust 514 is not merely a shooter game that has SATURATED the market. Dust 514 is the first Hybrid Cross Over to link a PC environment and Console environment together where events in either environment effect the other.

When dust becomes concrete you will see a lot of new players from the first person shooter genre becoming die hard Dust Eaters and Capsule Heads.
Grayland Aubaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-04-06 07:26:49 UTC
Beofryn Sedorak wrote:
Grayland Aubaris wrote:
Beofryn Sedorak wrote:
Grayland Aubaris wrote:
I would be surprised if they ever release Dust for PC. The reason why you don't see many (any?) fps games that cross both console and PC is not to do with technical difficulties, it's to do with the fact that a PC player with a mouse and keyboard will utterly outperform a player using a DPad.



This type of ignorance doesn't benefit anyone.

1) There are players that, while using a game pad, will destory players using Keyboard and mouse.

2) Both Keyboard/mouse and gamepad are available on both Ps4 and PC.



I'm happy to be proven wrong - if you can reference a FPS game that allows both PC players and console players to go head to head I will gladly eat my hat (if I had one...)

For my argument I reference:

http://www.techspot.com/news/39738-microsoft-killed-cross-platform-project-because-pc-gamers-wrecked-console-gamers.html

Also, I am well aware that you can get both d-pads for the PC and keyboards/mice for consoles - but people would be FORCED to buy them to be competitive, you cannot guarantee that they already own them. Game companies go to immense lengths to create the fabled 'balance' that everyone craves - and this would be a major source of unbalance.

Like I say, if you can cite a FPS game where both PC and Console gamers go head to head on an equal footing then by all means do so Smile


Your entire argument is null and void because people are already playing Keyboard and mouse vs gamepad in Dust 514.


Indeed - I would be interested to see the kill/loss ratio of people using keyboards + mice against people with game pads, I'm willing to bet that people using KB/Mice do significantly better. However the point still stands, if it was easy to do and balance you would see all the big games doing this - the reason you don't speaks volumes.

I quote the relevant part from that article here:

"According to Sood's sources, "many many months ago," Microsoft set out on a Xbox Live project that would let PC and console users interact on some form of united multiplayer platform – a grand idea on paper. In practice however, it's said that PC gamers "destroyed" console players every time.

The slaughter was so bad, Sood says that Microsoft even pitted "mediocre" PC gamers against "the best" console gamers in testing, and the results were unchanged: the keyboard and mouse prevailed. It's not clear what titles were played, but Unreal and Gears of War are mentioned.

Displeased with its findings, Microsoft supposedly cancelled the project to spare its Xbox team and players the embarrassment"

I would be interested to hear CCP's stance on the matter.
Beofryn Sedorak
#29 - 2014-04-06 07:54:24 UTC
Grayland Aubaris wrote:
Beofryn Sedorak wrote:
Grayland Aubaris wrote:
Beofryn Sedorak wrote:
Grayland Aubaris wrote:
I would be surprised if they ever release Dust for PC. The reason why you don't see many (any?) fps games that cross both console and PC is not to do with technical difficulties, it's to do with the fact that a PC player with a mouse and keyboard will utterly outperform a player using a DPad.



This type of ignorance doesn't benefit anyone.

1) There are players that, while using a game pad, will destory players using Keyboard and mouse.

2) Both Keyboard/mouse and gamepad are available on both Ps4 and PC.



I'm happy to be proven wrong - if you can reference a FPS game that allows both PC players and console players to go head to head I will gladly eat my hat (if I had one...)

For my argument I reference:

http://www.techspot.com/news/39738-microsoft-killed-cross-platform-project-because-pc-gamers-wrecked-console-gamers.html

Also, I am well aware that you can get both d-pads for the PC and keyboards/mice for consoles - but people would be FORCED to buy them to be competitive, you cannot guarantee that they already own them. Game companies go to immense lengths to create the fabled 'balance' that everyone craves - and this would be a major source of unbalance.

Like I say, if you can cite a FPS game where both PC and Console gamers go head to head on an equal footing then by all means do so Smile


Your entire argument is null and void because people are already playing Keyboard and mouse vs gamepad in Dust 514.


Indeed - I would be interested to see the kill/loss ratio of people using keyboards + mice against people with game pads, I'm willing to bet that people using KB/Mice do significantly better. However the point still stands, if it was easy to do and balance you would see all the big games doing this - the reason you don't speaks volumes.

I quote the relevant part from that article here:

"According to Sood's sources, "many many months ago," Microsoft set out on a Xbox Live project that would let PC and console users interact on some form of united multiplayer platform – a grand idea on paper. In practice however, it's said that PC gamers "destroyed" console players every time.

The slaughter was so bad, Sood says that Microsoft even pitted "mediocre" PC gamers against "the best" console gamers in testing, and the results were unchanged: the keyboard and mouse prevailed. It's not clear what titles were played, but Unreal and Gears of War are mentioned.

Displeased with its findings, Microsoft supposedly cancelled the project to spare its Xbox team and players the embarrassment"

I would be interested to hear CCP's stance on the matter.


Please allow me to repost what I said previously in it's entirety, verbatim, because you obviously didn't pay attention the first time.

Your entire argument is null and void because people are already playing Keyboard and mouse vs gamepad in Dust 514.
Grayland Aubaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-04-06 08:45:06 UTC
Beofryn Sedorak wrote:


Please allow me to repost what I said previously in it's entirety, verbatim, because you obviously didn't pay attention the first time.

Your entire argument is null and void because people are already playing Keyboard and mouse vs gamepad in Dust 514.


I did hear what you said, my points in response are:

a) Why do people use a KB mouse over a dpad if not for that fact that it is superior?
b) My second (probably un-provable without hard data) point is that people using a KB/Mouse most probably do far better against people using dpads.

I see your point in that you are saying, if people are already using KB/Mouse in Dust then why not bring it to PC? - I would argue that it would be to do with the number of people using a dpad vs kb/mouse. I have no objection to it being brought to PC, I would play it myself - I simply think that this would be a stumbling block as all the current Dust bunnies would scream and shout about how unfair it is that they need to buy a KB/Mouse in order to be competitive against a PC player.

Again, I doubt CCP is reading, but if so I would be interested to hear if this is a factor in any decisions they make.
Beofryn Sedorak
#31 - 2014-04-06 09:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Beofryn Sedorak
Grayland Aubaris wrote:
Beofryn Sedorak wrote:


Please allow me to repost what I said previously in it's entirety, verbatim, because you obviously didn't pay attention the first time.

Your entire argument is null and void because people are already playing Keyboard and mouse vs gamepad in Dust 514.


I did hear what you said, my points in response are:

a) Why do people use a KB mouse over a dpad if not for that fact that it is superior?
b) My second (probably un-provable without hard data) point is that people using a KB/Mouse most probably do far better against people using dpads.

I see your point in that you are saying, if people are already using KB/Mouse in Dust then why not bring it to PC? - I would argue that it would be to do with the number of people using a dpad vs kb/mouse. I have no objection to it being brought to PC, I would play it myself - I simply think that this would be a stumbling block as all the current Dust bunnies would scream and shout about how unfair it is that they need to buy a KB/Mouse in order to be competitive against a PC player.

Again, I doubt CCP is reading, but if so I would be interested to hear if this is a factor in any decisions they make.


I'm quite confident that the whole control input method argument plays next to no role in CCP's decisions as to whether or not release on PC.

The likely reasons CCP hasn't released it for PC are more along the lines of sound business decisions.

I'm confident that CCP released on Playstation instead of PC so they could "Diversify". E.G. Break into the console market. Also, likely in a small part to avoid competing with themselves for their PC gamers. E.G. Take players AWAY from eve.

The likely reasons for them to have stayed on only the Playstation thus far is so they can be focused on the game itself and getting it "polished" without being distracted by making sure there aren't any issues with releasing it on multiple platforms.

As for the low numbers in dust, CCP has openly acknowledged that they're not heavily pushing their marketing for it as they don't actually feel it is a complete product yet. Anyone speculating that Dust is dying based on the perceived popularity of the game is just ignorant of that simple fact (This part's a tangent and not directed at you Grayland Aubaris).
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