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Defensive web: must have or lazy mode?
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Denuo Secus
#1 - 2014-04-05 03:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Hi all,

when flying kiting cruisers like the rail Thorax or the RLML Caracal I like to fit a defensive web. But for my actual tactic (kiting) a TC, for instance, would be much more useful. The web is useless as long as everything works like planned. But on the other hand the web helped me more than once when facing frigs or expensive(fitted) and/or linked cruisers.

So whats your experience? Should I just try harder and fit something useful instead of the web? Or is it really a must have module which really extends your target spectrum?

Side note: I know from own experience and PvP videos that kiting Amarr cruisers and frigs (Omen, Nomen, Executioner, Slicer) are a thing. They cannot fit a web, and it still works. This fact was another reason to question the web.
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-04-05 04:08:48 UTC
So the web which has helped you numerous times isn't as useful as a tracking computer?

I'd disagree. There is going to be a few ships that you won't be able to track well enough to blap where a defensive web is your only really viable way of not getting scrammed. There's nothing wrong with that, you'll note that the Nomen has a defensive neut which serves a similar purpose and won't come into play unless things go **** up as well. Having a way of countering tackle is one of the more useful things you can fit to a kiting ship, I don't see what your issue is
Denuo Secus
#3 - 2014-04-05 04:24:05 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
So the web which has helped you numerous times isn't as useful as a tracking computer?

I'd disagree. There is going to be a few ships that you won't be able to track well enough to blap where a defensive web is your only really viable way of not getting scrammed. There's nothing wrong with that, you'll note that the Nomen has a defensive neut which serves a similar purpose and won't come into play unless things go **** up as well. Having a way of countering tackle is one of the more useful things you can fit to a kiting ship, I don't see what your issue is


Ok let me rephrase my "issue": if I can leave out the web I could fit a module which helps me doing my actual tactic: a TC to deal more damage at my range, a TD to fight stuff which is hard to kite like pulse laser ships, an ECCM which helps (sometimes) as soon as an annoying Griffin appears on grid, a Sebo to lock quickly approaching frigs faster...and so on.

All this stuff helps when kiting. The web too but it feels that when I need it I just did it wrong and should learn2kite.
Hesod Adee
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-04-05 04:34:00 UTC
Play with both for a while, see which works for you.
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-04-05 05:09:14 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
So the web which has helped you numerous times isn't as useful as a tracking computer?

I'd disagree. There is going to be a few ships that you won't be able to track well enough to blap where a defensive web is your only really viable way of not getting scrammed. There's nothing wrong with that, you'll note that the Nomen has a defensive neut which serves a similar purpose and won't come into play unless things go **** up as well. Having a way of countering tackle is one of the more useful things you can fit to a kiting ship, I don't see what your issue is


Ok let me rephrase my "issue": if I can leave out the web I could fit a module which helps me doing my actual tactic: a TC to deal more damage at my range, a TD to fight stuff which is hard to kite like pulse laser ships, an ECCM which helps (sometimes) as soon as an annoying Griffin appears on grid, a Sebo to lock quickly approaching frigs faster...and so on.

All this stuff helps when kiting. The web too but it feels that when I need it I just did it wrong and should learn2kite.


Not getting scrammed by a Taranis that you otherwise can't track on approach also helps when kiting v0v
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#6 - 2014-04-05 05:17:59 UTC
tc . 30% tracking or whatever

web 60% tracking under 13km

you pick

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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#7 - 2014-04-05 06:53:54 UTC
Another term for 'kite' is range control.
Range control IS your main tactic.
The web helps maintain range, because sometimes, it's not that you f'd up, it's the other pilot has a better ship or skills.
Hotpocket said it: 60% speed/tracking/transversal adjustment. It's almost like 3 bonus's in 1 mod.
If you have limited slots, web is the right choice on most close range fits.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#8 - 2014-04-05 10:03:12 UTC
With the high amount of frigs everywhere I would consider a defensive web as very important tool to have.

Amarr kiting ships work without a web because they use closerange guns with decent tracking. But even a Nomen with Multifreq will have problems tracking a frig that got a stable orbit. A railthorax on the other hand has really bad tracking and would be completely screwed if something got too close.

The web will also make it hard for scram frigs to even apply their scram. If you heat your web you will have 12km range and sometimes if you react fast enough you can manage to pull range again before they land their scram.

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Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#9 - 2014-04-05 10:12:51 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
With the high amount of frigs everywhere I would consider a defensive web as very important tool to have.

Amarr kiting ships work without a web because they use closerange guns with decent tracking. But even a Nomen with Multifreq will have problems tracking a frig that got a stable orbit. A railthorax on the other hand has really bad tracking and would be completely screwed if something got too close.

The web will also make it hard for scram frigs to even apply their scram. If you heat your web you will have 12km range and sometimes if you react fast enough you can manage to pull range again before they land their scram.


Heated Web is 13km, ... and with the amount of Ceptors around, you'll often find yourself scrammed at 13km, too.
It's true that a web helps a lot once tackled, however i'd use a Medium Neutralizer as defense. Works on the same range, and shuts down a single tackle in ~12 seconds.
While the Web will range control one enemy, getting that MWD going ASAP will range control the enemy and his friends.
Cause even if you have a web, it will only help as long as no secondary scram is applied.


Then again, i'm still pretty new to cruisers, 10 days to be exact, and you can see my efforts so far on my killboard.
Started with the Omen, which is a cool ship, but lacks vmax. Stabber has a nice vmax, but the dps is just anemic. Good at fighting off tackle though. Started NOmen after my first 10 Omens died, and it's damn beautiful. Medium Neut, insane ranges, good tracking, nice vmax, and boy that agility is sick.

Still have to try Caldari / Gallente Ships, but what i've figured so far is that HAMs are terrible in killing tackle, and RLML are terrible in engaging bigger stuff.

Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#10 - 2014-04-05 11:41:29 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
With the high amount of frigs everywhere I would consider a defensive web as very important tool to have.

Amarr kiting ships work without a web because they use closerange guns with decent tracking. But even a Nomen with Multifreq will have problems tracking a frig that got a stable orbit. A railthorax on the other hand has really bad tracking and would be completely screwed if something got too close.

The web will also make it hard for scram frigs to even apply their scram. If you heat your web you will have 12km range and sometimes if you react fast enough you can manage to pull range again before they land their scram.


Heated Web is 13km, ... and with the amount of Ceptors around, you'll often find yourself scrammed at 13km, too.
It's true that a web helps a lot once tackled, however i'd use a Medium Neutralizer as defense. Works on the same range, and shuts down a single tackle in ~12 seconds.
While the Web will range control one enemy, getting that MWD going ASAP will range control the enemy and his friends.
Cause even if you have a web, it will only help as long as no secondary scram is applied.



Well interceptors are in some way a hardcounter to kiting cruisers if you dont have links and/or faction tackle or are able to melt them before they pose a significant threat. The web will still help you to kill the ceptor fast. Medium neuts are really nice to have, but not many ships have the utility high for it.

And if you get multiple scrams on you your only choice is to kill some of them fast. A neut will only counter 1 scram so you will still need something to kill the other ones.


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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#11 - 2014-04-05 15:41:33 UTC
I get the impression this is for solo pvp, in which case solo pvp is about minimizing weaknesses more than maximizing strengths. If you are ganging up on people, than maximizing your strengths is the right choice.

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#12 - 2014-04-05 16:58:28 UTC
Its not often that you screw up enough to get caught but little enough so that an unbonused defensive web would save you.

If you're running links its probably worth using though.

But like always it just comes down to what you really need... A lot of kiting ships need cap for example

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Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-04-11 00:59:31 UTC
I run a TD Cynabal. When I was first playing with it on test server, the TD let me brawl with an AC web loki, and win. Also turned Taloses (which were the current meta at the time) into sitting ducks.

TD > Web

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Micky Nox
Decadent Court
#14 - 2014-04-11 12:17:00 UTC
There is nothing wrong with fitting web on a kiting cruiser. Properly fitted interceptor will go 5-6km/s (before links/heat) and without defensive web you will end up being scrammed or webbed. Thus having web allows you to take fights that you shouldn't be taking without.