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Understanding dropouts from a PvP kill.

Author
Nhanderu Mbaekuaa
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2014-04-04 16:15:47 UTC
Wulfgar WarHammer wrote:
Nhanderu Mbaekuaa wrote:
You mine the ore, or closest set of ores to produce the minerals you need, and seel the unneeded excess to buy more of the needed set, then minimising the total time in space. I wonder, is there around some worksheet already calculating this?


Mining Chart

You mean to tell me this whole time you've been trying to recreate something that has been readily available for almost a decade?

For someone who seems to know a lot about programming, you don't seem to know how to internet very well


Hmm, no, I am sure I am trying to recreate something that is available, but it is not the celestes ore page. I'd expect some page allowing you to set up goals.

Say, you are a miner+industrialist, you have a production goals, coming from whaever motivation, and you have then some need of minerals. You want to minimize the time out there in space mining in order to fill your needs. You can use the market, so it is not a problem to sell your excess and then use it to buy a part of your supply, so minimising further the total time. What you need is a spreadsheet with some goal-seeking tool, or a specific webpage doing just this work.

350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-04-04 16:40:11 UTC  |  Edited by: 350125GO
Nhanderu Mbaekuaa wrote:

Say, you are a miner+industrialist, you have a production goals, coming from whaever motivation, and you have then some need of minerals. You want to minimize the time out there in space mining in order to fill your needs. You can use the market, so it is not a problem to sell your excess and then use it to buy a part of your supply, so minimising further the total time. What you need is a spreadsheet with some goal-seeking tool, or a specific webpage doing just this work.



You're mixing motivations here as the two you've listed are not congruent. If you're concerned about saving time, then the answer is to mine whatever will make you the most isk and then purchase all the minerals.

If you want to feel good about mining everything yourself to build whatever you're building then you're clearly not concerned about saving time. That task is simply there for feeling proud of your accomplishments. It's not unworthy, just unrelated to time.

Some people climb a mountain to get to the top, some do it to get to the other side. Both are valid reasons to climb, but neither is dependent on the other.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.

Nhanderu Mbaekuaa
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-04-04 17:16:32 UTC
Nhanderu Mbaekuaa
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2014-04-04 17:22:49 UTC
350125GO wrote:
If you're concerned about saving time, then the answer is to mine whatever will make you the most isk and then purchase all the minerals.


I would be surprised if this is the general answer. Said that, I agree that trying to built your empire in a self-contained way is a worthy goal by itself. But my gut is that the optimum is middle way.
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#25 - 2014-04-04 17:36:10 UTC
Nhanderu Mbaekuaa wrote:
350125GO wrote:
If you're concerned about saving time, then the answer is to mine whatever will make you the most isk and then purchase all the minerals.


I would be surprised if this is the general answer. Said that, I agree that trying to built your empire in a self-contained way is a worthy goal by itself. But my gut is that the optimum is middle way.


But it is the answer. Need minerals? Buy them from the market, it doesn't get much faster than that. The other problem you will run into trying to mine for ratio of the destroyed minerals is finding the correct ore types.
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#26 - 2014-04-04 17:43:13 UTC
Nhanderu Mbaekuaa wrote:
Wulfgar WarHammer wrote:
Nhanderu Mbaekuaa wrote:
You mine the ore, or closest set of ores to produce the minerals you need, and seel the unneeded excess to buy more of the needed set, then minimising the total time in space. I wonder, is there around some worksheet already calculating this?


Mining Chart

You mean to tell me this whole time you've been trying to recreate something that has been readily available for almost a decade?

For someone who seems to know a lot about programming, you don't seem to know how to internet very well


Hmm, no, I am sure I am trying to recreate something that is available, but it is not the celestes ore page. I'd expect some page allowing you to set up goals.

Say, you are a miner+industrialist, you have a production goals, coming from whaever motivation, and you have then some need of minerals. You want to minimize the time out there in space mining in order to fill your needs. You can use the market, so it is not a problem to sell your excess and then use it to buy a part of your supply, so minimising further the total time. What you need is a spreadsheet with some goal-seeking tool, or a specific webpage doing just this work.



Your problem will be finding the correct ore types, short of mining in null sec you won't be able to mine everything you need. And by mining in null sec it means you will have ship to trade hubs which takes yet more time.
Wulfgar WarHammer
Unrustled
#27 - 2014-04-04 18:19:54 UTC
The best way to 'save time' mining is to mine the rock that is worth the most money, and then sell the rock to buy what you need, as everyone has been telling you since the first page.
350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-04-04 19:03:55 UTC
Wulfgar WarHammer wrote:
The best way to 'save time' mining is to mine the rock that is worth the most money, and then sell the rock to buy what you need, as everyone has been telling you since the first page.


If we all weren't so damn bored at work, this thread would have died quietly by now.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.

Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#29 - 2014-04-04 19:25:10 UTC
Hah, exactly 350.


Unintuitively, production and mining are not really well related. They are two very different things.


Production can get very large very fast. I go through multiple billions of isk worth of minerals every week. There is no way I could mine it all if I had all my alts mining 24/7. Honestly, I haven't even sat in a mining barge in years. I'm too busy monitoring my market orders, starting jobs, and adjusting spreadsheets that I couldn't pay attention to keeping lasers on a rock if I tried.


Also, not all ores are available everywhere. There are tons of high sec miners crunching on Veldspar who will never see an Arkanor rock. So if these people are overproducing tritanium and getting no magacyte, then you would be better off mining the megacyte to balance the market.

As groups of miners change what they are mining, the market fluctuates. So just do what everyone else does and follow the invisible hand of the free market. Figure out which of the available ores in your area is worth the most and focus on mining it. When it is gone, mine the next most valuable ore. That will maximize your mining profits.

If you also want to produce, figure out something that sells for good profits. Calculate how much of each mineral you need. Sell the excess minerals you mined. Buy the minerals you lack. Build. Make good manufacturing profits as well.

On the other hand, if you live in a wormhole where logistics is a bigger problem than everywhere else, and you want to build for own use rather than for the market, then you should be able to calculate mineral requirements for what you want to make. From that you can get ore ratios. You didn't need to look at killmails for that.


Examining a bunch of kill mails is a great way to get ideas of what items to manufacture to sell. It isn't a great way to determine what to mine.
Nhanderu Mbaekuaa
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2014-04-05 20:38:53 UTC
Well, guys, you are right, and I was wrong here; if there is no marginal costs (sellling vs buying, refine, etcI the faster way to get the materials for any blueprint is to mine the most profitable ore. Barring Mercoxit/Morphite, that amounts nowadays towards mining hedgerbite.

While it is mathematically sound, I am surprised that the market gifts us a good bunch of time. For the combinations I have checked, the total time of mining is reduced in a 25% respect to the time needed when all the ore is extracted with your own (or your corporation) hands.

(I was planning to upload some example, but the directorate at google has decided to remove the Solver from google drive worksheets)
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-04-05 20:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
Nhanderu Mbaekuaa wrote:
Barring Mercoxit/Morphite, that amounts nowadays towards mining hedgerbite.


However that's a lowsec ore, so you need to take into account the time not mining while you wait for hunters to leave the system
Nhanderu Mbaekuaa
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-04-06 03:28:01 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Nhanderu Mbaekuaa wrote:
Barring Mercoxit/Morphite, that amounts nowadays towards mining hedgerbite.


However that's a lowsec ore, so you need to take into account the time not mining while you wait for hunters to leave the system


Yep, that could explain it. A 25% of free lunch seems too generous from the market.
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