These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Divisions of labor

Author
Sigras
Conglomo
#1 - 2014-04-02 09:15:25 UTC
Now that we're going to have the refining changes, is it time to think about adding divisions of labor to the game?

The Idea
add a few dozen skills for industry to build specific things or give a bonus to specific things.

IE:
T2 Construction - 2% reduction in T2 manufacturing time per level
T2 Construction Specialization - 2% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for T2 production (requires T2 Construction level 5)
Starship Construction - 2% reduction in manufacturing time of starships per skill level.
Battleship Construction Specialization - 1% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for battleship production (requires starship construction level 5)
Cruiser Construction Specialization - 1% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for cruiser production (requires starship construction level 5)
Gallente Construction - 2% reduction in manufacturing time of Gallente products per skill level.
Gallente Construction Specialization - 1% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for Gallente products (gallente ships, ammo, components, blasters, etc) per skill level. (requires ]Gallente Construction level 5)
Module Construction - 1% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for module production
Ammo Construction - 1% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for ammo production

You may notice that many of these skills overlap and that is intentional. That way, if you're building a Kronos, that build is effected by Starship Construction, Battleship Construction Specialization, Gallente Construction and its specialization, and T2 construction and its specialization.

All of these bonuses can stack to give you quite a huge savings if you specialize in producing one specific thing, but the days of having one character who can perfectly manufacture all the things would be over.

Right now I can start a new alt and have him learn to perfectly manufacture 90% of the items in game in two weeks. I could give him mass production from range in less than two months, and then I would have an alt that "does manufacturing"

It seems ridiculous to me to train for a month or two and say "ok I've mastered that part of the game now what?"

The Effects
The current manufacturers in the game will begin to train the new skills. Prices wont rise on anything as nobody suddenly got worse at manufacturing, but people would start training to manufacture specific things. They would be able to increase their margins in those items over unspecialized people.

Thoughts?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#2 - 2014-04-02 09:22:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Interesting thoughts and savings and time reductions are always nice to have, especially later in the game when you have achieve a level in industry where there's not much more to train for. It would also give an incentive to train some of the production skills to V, which are not yet needed at this level.

But that the days of 1 character mastering all the production perfectly are over with this? I hardly believe that. It just takes some months of training and then I have a char, who is a true master in ever aspect again.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#3 - 2014-04-02 09:27:43 UTC
I like the idea even though it would add another gazillion weeks training time into my queue. It'd need the folks who understand the market better to give comments on how this would affect things though. tentative +1
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-04-02 12:07:21 UTC
TBH I would like to see ways to see people better protect current mineral investments; transportation of goods in dangerous space is alarmingly and sometime hilariously underexecuted, so seeing something like having interbus ship your stuff around at a cost might be a good feature to add.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#5 - 2014-04-02 12:11:54 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
TBH I would like to see ways to see people better protect current mineral investments; transportation of goods in dangerous space is alarmingly and sometime hilariously underexecuted, so seeing something like having interbus ship your stuff around at a cost might be a good feature to add.


I thought blackfrog could run stuff from null?
Seraphina Oriana
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-04-02 12:15:01 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I thought blackfrog could run stuff from null?


Blackfrog can go to NPC null or low sec.

As for the idea, I quite like it. +1
Sigras
Conglomo
#7 - 2014-04-03 10:32:57 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Interesting thoughts and savings and time reductions are always nice to have, especially later in the game when you have achieve a level in industry where there's not much more to train for. It would also give an incentive to train some of the production skills to V, which are not yet needed at this level.

But that the days of 1 character mastering all the production perfectly are over with this? I hardly believe that. It just takes some months of training and then I have a char, who is a true master in ever aspect again.

ok, you probably couldnt prevent one character from being able to build everything perfectly, but you could make it just as skill intensive as combat.

To my knowledge nobody has completely maxed out all of the available combat skills, so you could make it > 5 years to max out industry too.

That would be preferable to what we have now IMHO.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#8 - 2014-04-03 10:38:44 UTC
So basically you are intending on making it impossible for a new player to ever compete with Industry because they will be priced out of the market. Margins on profitability on most items are less than 10%.

And you can't simply change tactics or refit like PvP can.

So.... No. You haven't thought this through at all. (Or you have and deliberately want to harm the new players)
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#9 - 2014-04-03 10:48:02 UTC
I am not sure if you can compare industry to "max out all combat skills". If at all, and in the scope of your idea, industry should be similar in terms of time to maxing out 1 type of gun/1 ship race/1 tank type - not all guns/ships/tanks, that is ludicrous and deluded.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Sigras
Conglomo
#10 - 2014-04-03 18:50:16 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I am not sure if you can compare industry to "max out all combat skills". If at all, and in the scope of your idea, industry should be similar in terms of time to maxing out 1 type of gun/1 ship race/1 tank type - not all guns/ships/tanks, that is ludicrous and deluded.

I imagine being able to build 1 item the same as being able to fly 1 ship with 1 type of gun and 1 tank type, but you said "mastering all of production perfectly" (emphasis mine).

I imagine being able to build all the items the same as being able to fly all the ships with all the guns and all the tank types.
Sigras
Conglomo
#11 - 2014-04-03 19:03:04 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So basically you are intending on making it impossible for a new player to ever compete with Industry because they will be priced out of the market. Margins on profitability on most items are less than 10%.

And you can't simply change tactics or refit like PvP can.

So.... No. You haven't thought this through at all. (Or you have and deliberately want to harm the new players)

or you forgot that market specialization means less competition in any singular market leading to an increase in margins.

Right now the barriers to entry are extremely low, I train 3-4 skills and then all I have to do to switch products is buy a BPO/BPC

That isnt going to change; the margins should simply increase for the people who specialize in a particular item until there are enough people specialized in that item to keep up with demand. This should only rarely happen given that you put enough skills into the game.

This is the same way that T2 production works right now. The T2 BPO holders make far more money, but there isnt enough of them in any singular product to fulfill market need, so inventors take up the rest of the slack, and make their set profit.
Bobby Hatless
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-04-03 21:28:51 UTC
>>or you forgot that market specialization means less competition in any singular market leading to an increase in margins.

I think that was his point - market specialisation effectively cuts all new players out of industry. 'Less competition' is a bad thing for consumers.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#13 - 2014-04-03 23:24:43 UTC
In a smaller market T2 BPO holders destroy all invention.

This idea is equivalent to saying that industrial characters over 'X' skill points have free T2 BPO's.

Currently that's true, but X is so low as to allow competition. Raising X a little (A couple of months of training to perfect mineral requirements) may be desirable however due to the way industry works people need to be able to work across the market. Raising X significantly (onto the scale of years to perfect) however will destroy any chance of competition for a newer player.

Mineral requirements are the holy grail of industry. Anything that changes them changes your margin on an item. It's why I am so against any area of space having a refining advantage, because it creates the same environment where anyone in that space can automatically out price war someone from other spaces. There is no way to fight that kind of price advantage. It's not like PvP where you can bring more or use smart tactics. It's straight up automatic loss.
Sigras
Conglomo
#14 - 2014-04-04 23:02:56 UTC
How is this different from how combat is done currently?

New players can match old veterans in combat by specializing in a particular ship; industry should be the same way, and in the same way that you can spend months specializing in a single ship to fly it perfectly even though most people actually dont, you should be able to spend extra time in manufacturing a particular ship to get it perfect even though most people actually wont.

I mean honestly how many people do you know with small railgun specialization level 5? not many right? but the point is that you can do it if you want and industry should be the same way.

I also challenge something you said:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
due to the way industry works people need to be able to work across the market.

Why do you think this is the case? Certainly the T2 BPO owners dont think so...

Additionally you could easily switch specializations if the thing you were manufacturing got nerfed...

Say youre manufacturing dominixes (dominis? dominixen?) so you have T1 spec, gallente spec, and battleship spec, you could train amaar spec to manufacture abaddons, OR you could train T2 spec to build Kronos, OR you could train battlecruiser spec to build myrmadons ...

Thoughts?