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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

First post First post First post
Author
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1461 - 2014-04-01 15:55:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.

Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.

o/


hopefully some response to webs being nerfed would be nice ... 90% is insanely OP ... 60% webs are OP especially when a 1day noob can use them at that level no other e-war is so powerful for no skill investment on any ship..

also some work on serpentis and angels are needed .. a clear form of tanking i.e. angels are supposed to be shield tanked .. but you wouldn't know it atm.... serpentis should be armour tanked but again it is hard to notice this.. more differentiation from their gallente and minmatar counterparts is needed.. dramiel shouldn't have drones ...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Caval Marten
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1462 - 2014-04-01 17:52:49 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.

Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.

o/

Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
#1463 - 2014-04-01 18:38:59 UTC
Won't the new Cruor be the only frigate in the game that would be able to catch a kiting ship, apply some nice dps and have a chance of neuting them out completely or using a powerfull nos to keep whatever mods on the ship running?

I think it has a pretty nice role.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#1464 - 2014-04-01 19:35:58 UTC
Ashley Animus wrote:
Won't the new Cruor be the only frigate in the game that would be able to catch a kiting ship, apply some nice dps and have a chance of neuting them out completely or using a powerfull nos to keep whatever mods on the ship running?

I think it has a pretty nice role.


Please read the first page again.

What will a Cruor be doing after TQ release?

A kiting boat closes in on your Cruor. You decide to commit. You lock zee kiter with your 30km web. Kiter decides that its not going the why he wanted and swings to warp away.

Or

The kiter makes fun of you and shoots your Cruor to a shiney killmail.

In both cases will your meta 4 or tech2 NOS with 6.6km range no effect whatsoever on the attacking kiter.

The End

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1465 - 2014-04-01 19:46:10 UTC
I worry about the Succubus... it looks like the AB bonus could work.... but then its not a fast ship to start with, but at least speed is useful o a frigate.

It may even work on the Phantasm... but its a really bad bonus for the nightmare, and this "unify themes" thing has me worried.

Unlike the Mach, Vindi, Bhaal, or even rattler, the NM has no PvP role.
Its solo PvE role was limited to amarr high sec space (or I suppose deep blue with EM rats?)
-but marauders have supersceded it completely at solo PvE

Its *only* role is as an incursion boat.
Extra mobility will not help it, especially if that comes in the form of an AB bonus (MWD bonus would help... a little, but it would be fairly pointless, MJD bonus would overlap with marauders)
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
#1466 - 2014-04-01 20:19:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashley Animus
elitatwo wrote:
Ashley Animus wrote:
Won't the new Cruor be the only frigate in the game that would be able to catch a kiting ship, apply some nice dps and have a chance of neuting them out completely or using a powerfull nos to keep whatever mods on the ship running?

I think it has a pretty nice role.


Please read the first page again.

What will a Cruor be doing after TQ release?

A kiting boat closes in on your Cruor. You decide to commit. You lock zee kiter with your 30km web. Kiter decides that its not going the why he wanted and swings to warp away.

Or

The kiter makes fun of you and shoots your Cruor to a shiney killmail.

In both cases will your meta 4 or tech2 NOS with 6.6km range no effect whatsoever on the attacking kiter.

The End


I think the thing is any kiting ship would either have to warp off at the moment they get webbed unless they have a web fitted too, so they can scram range kite. If they dont, which is not uncommon, and it gets scrammed it will be neuted and killed. Same goes for brawling setups. The only thing this ship should worry about is not getting into neut range which i dont think will be a very big problem. Can always go for a AB of something.

Edit: Slap a 10mn AB on it and it will be unstoppable :p
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#1467 - 2014-04-01 21:17:25 UTC
Ashley Animus wrote:

Edit: Slap a 10mn AB on it and it will be unstoppable :p


Big smile

I can only hope that the Phantasm will be a scary as she was prior to Apocrypha and people start 'self-destruct' at the point they see one on d-scan.

As for Guristas,
maybe give them the missle formular we had before winter 2006, yes the one without that 'tracking stuff' that doesn't belong there anyway.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Flyinghotpocket
Doomheim
#1468 - 2014-04-01 22:53:40 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.

Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.

o/


please learn to play, cruor requires 4 lowslots. untanked neuting ships with overpowered webs are really not a good idea. for solo they're extremely powerful and get no fights, and in anything bigger than solo, they're killed instantly. what you're making here is a ship that's not very useful for anything.

how about you learn to 2 play nooblord. 4 lowslot cruor is completely meaningless, its tank is FINE right now. what it needs is 4 mids.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Caval Marten
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1469 - 2014-04-01 23:16:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.

Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.

o/


Thank you for the update but I think more details on the testing and thought process would go a long way. Stating "too strong" does not provide much meaningful insight.

If we are discussing "too strong", I think any soloer would agree that the Daredevil is head and shoulders above any other T1 frig but it's still maintaining it's op characteristics. I'd really like to know what you guys tested that brought the Cruor into the "too strong" level (more so than a DD).
Leyline777
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1470 - 2014-04-02 03:20:55 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Mornin!


Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.

WORM

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)


Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(-15) / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5
Sensor strength: 15
Signature radius: 40



I like the worm's direction but am concerned about the gila, specifically where it comes into opposition versus the VNI. Currently the two are fairly balanced, one having a cavernous bay and resists, with the other having a huge velocity and tracking boost. I worry that reducing the drone bay of the gila will make it less a contest between it and the ishtar and more between gila and vni.

What are your general ideas with the gila changes? If it lost drone bay I would hope that it would gain more grid/cpu and additional launcher slots to compensate.
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#1471 - 2014-04-02 07:02:41 UTC
Caval Marten wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.

Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.

o/


Thank you for the update but I think more details on the testing and thought process would go a long way. Stating "too strong" does not provide much meaningful insight.

If we are discussing "too strong", I think any soloer would agree that the Daredevil is head and shoulders above any other T1 frig but it's still maintaining it's op characteristics. I'd really like to know what you guys tested that brought the Cruor into the "too strong" level (more so than a DD).

This... What exactly did you guys test on the Cruor, because honestly I see no situation where this ship has any use beyond "looking" cool in this iteration. It really seems like you pick and choose the posts you want to read with regards to the balance "discussion" because you don't actually discuss anything with us you say "we did some things, didn't like them so we're sticking with idea that Bloodraider ships are supposed to remain terrible, it just fits with the line"

And this dev blog you speak of, I know I shouldn't hold my breath on what could possibly be in a dev blog (outside the already posted stats of the pirate frigs) that could have any effect on them, but I guess it's yet another wait and see.
Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#1472 - 2014-04-02 08:17:20 UTC
Leyline777 wrote:


I like the worm's direction but am concerned about the gila, specifically where it comes into opposition versus the VNI. Currently the two are fairly balanced, one having a cavernous bay and resists, with the other having a huge velocity and tracking boost. I worry that reducing the drone bay of the gila will make it less a contest between it and the ishtar and more between gila and vni.

What are your general ideas with the gila changes? If it lost drone bay I would hope that it would gain more grid/cpu and additional launcher slots to compensate.


Wait wait wait.... pirate and navy ships don't have to be balanced.
Pirate should be stronger than navy.
Ambrosse Brutus
Cyborg Infomorph Technologies
Stain Confederation
#1473 - 2014-04-02 14:01:36 UTC
Swap the afterburner bonus currently proposed for Sansha to Blood Raiders, and give the web range bonus to Sansha at 50% per level just under that which can be achieved by the Huginn. Then remove the Sansha tracking bonus as it will be no longer required, and add some suitable Caldari bonus.

Also, I believe CCP may be reducing the T2 web strength to 50% in the future, that is why no change was made to the Serpentis bonus.

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
30% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances per level

Role Bonus:
250% bonus to Stasis Webifier range


CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness per level

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus per level

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#1474 - 2014-04-03 01:00:21 UTC
Ambrosse Brutus wrote:

Also, I believe CCP may be reducing the T2 web strength to 50% in the future, that is why no change was made to the Serpentis bonus.


By this logic no change needed to be made for the blood's either, try again.
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
#1475 - 2014-04-03 14:19:59 UTC
Caval Marten wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.

Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.

o/


Thank you for the update but I think more details on the testing and thought process would go a long way. Stating "too strong" does not provide much meaningful insight.

If we are discussing "too strong", I think any soloer would agree that the Daredevil is head and shoulders above any other T1 frig but it's still maintaining it's op characteristics. I'd really like to know what you guys tested that brought the Cruor into the "too strong" level (more so than a DD).


One guess is that they added a range bonus within the neut and vamp strength bonus. A "15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and range" which would make a small neut have a range of 11km or so. Or atleast i hope they considered it.
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#1476 - 2014-04-03 14:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcia en Welle
Dun'Gal wrote:
Ambrosse Brutus wrote:

Also, I believe CCP may be reducing the T2 web strength to 50% in the future, that is why no change was made to the Serpentis bonus.


By this logic no change needed to be made for the blood's either, try again.

Blood ships already have a web range bonus on the Bhaalgorn. CCP already mentioned they didn't want mixed bonuses across ship lines. Either the bhaalgorn gets a web strength bonus, or the other two get a range bonus.
Stouman
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1477 - 2014-04-03 17:07:56 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
let us know what you think

I did not like the recent trait change to HAC & AF; railroading them into MWD use, especially given that the faster you go in relation to your target, the higher chance turrets will be completely ineffective (MISS)...
so i don't like the Sansha AB+turret idea either; regardless of any tracking bonus.
The other stuff seems to be an overall improvement, but I have some different ideas to share on these subjects (see below).
~*~ I tried to simplify my ideas down to changes that could be implemented without much (if any) change to the current slot layout and/or stats/themes, and yet make the ship & mods useful enough to see some actual use beyond being eye-candy. ~*~ So without further ado...
***
Suggestions/ideas for BOOD RAIDERS, and SANSHAS, with additional ideas for other (currently underutilized) mods;
mainly the NOS/NEUT and SMARTBOMB mods:
____________
Roleplay/lore: Sansha responds to capsuler counter-incursion gangs by improvising new tech/tactics?

Sanshas ship traits: - NEW smartbomb range/damage bonus with focused/2ndary-mode option; similar to h. interdictor

#1 ship skill bonus per level:[/u] smartbomb range 5-15% (25-75 ~ 50%? @ level 5?)

#2 ship skill bonus per level:[/u] passive bonus to shield, armor, sensors, inertia, or agility (help them live to sb range)

Role bonus: +100% energy turret damage (unchanged unless high slots & hardpoints adjusted, in which case the smartbomb idea can be tossed out and we might as well go back to the Sanshas I remember:
split weapon system laser / missiles

Special ability: can use smartbombs in focused, single-target "smart" mode (must do so within high security systems)
Actual details are up for debate, but i'm thinking just make it a single-target blast of about the same damage with perhaps 2x range of the omni-directional blast being the default.
## New item: ## (True Sansha versus Sansha?) implant set: +30-50% to smartbomb damage?
_______________________
Blood Raider / Nos/neut mechanic re-balance: a capacitor emptied by a nos/neut module will now cause an immediate "power outtage"/system reboot that will create a brief "micro-stun" (0-2 sec?)
with effects differing from current "capacitor is empty" as follows:
unlocking of all current targets, immediate de-activation of any module requiring cap, (warp/jump drives immediately stopped, module cycles halted etc.) shield hp regeneration stops until some cap exists again in the capacitor.

Roleplay / lore: More players flying BR ships in your fleet, the stronger the probability of maintaining this nos/neut semi-stun-lock,
which fits with their reclusive cult theme of sticking to themselves and having mysterious ways.

functions uneffected by this new nos/neut mechanic might include:
drone use, FoF missile use (purely due to lack of a target required), reloading of weapon systems (all?),
and other passive systems
(so actually Guristas ships, among others, are good counter-tactic).

Other ways to completely nullify/counter-act the new nos/neut "system shock" involve use of various (almost completely unused currently) modules, usually low-slot modules as my thoughts were that those items might be said to have a number of different natural resistances to such electronic/energy attack, including but not limited to: having their own power-supply/battery-pack (LOW-power slot?), "being in need of additional functionality for economic viability they have been improved in their basic factory specs to include a buffer/firewall-type defense against just such effect/attack" (RP/balance reasons; so they will sell/use better), and/or finally they
Example modules:
capacitor flux coils, shield flux coils, signal amplifiers, backup arrays.
Examples of modules that will, without changes to current stats, minimize the nos/neut effects: cap batteries, cap rechargers, sensor boosters, and modules with lower cap/cycle requirements.

I think I've rambled enough for now. Thanks for stopping by!
o7

You kill the jackal! You see here a jackal corpse. This jackal corpse tastes terrible! You finish eating the jackal corpse.

Leyline777
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1478 - 2014-04-03 18:04:53 UTC
Giullare wrote:
Leyline777 wrote:


I like the worm's direction but am concerned about the gila, specifically where it comes into opposition versus the VNI. Currently the two are fairly balanced, one having a cavernous bay and resists, with the other having a huge velocity and tracking boost. I worry that reducing the drone bay of the gila will make it less a contest between it and the ishtar and more between gila and vni.

What are your general ideas with the gila changes? If it lost drone bay I would hope that it would gain more grid/cpu and additional launcher slots to compensate.


Wait wait wait.... pirate and navy ships don't have to be balanced.
Pirate should be stronger than navy.



That was my point. currently gila is between ishtar and vni. Im hoping the switch if its like the worm, will make it gila> isthar> vni
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#1479 - 2014-04-03 18:44:35 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:
Dun'Gal wrote:
Ambrosse Brutus wrote:

Also, I believe CCP may be reducing the T2 web strength to 50% in the future, that is why no change was made to the Serpentis bonus.


By this logic no change needed to be made for the blood's either, try again.

Blood ships already have a web range bonus on the Bhaalgorn. CCP already mentioned they didn't want mixed bonuses across ship lines. Either the bhaalgorn gets a web strength bonus, or the other two get a range bonus.

Well in that case, when it came time to rebalance the pirate BS they could've addressed that, instead they give a trash bonus to a ship that was already hurting, and that has no meaningful use for it outside of replacing a Hyena in a fleet. And before anyone says it, don't even try to suggest this is for anti-kiting because this ship will not be catching kiters any better with this change than it already does now, that is to say the ONLY way it's catching and holding kiters is with an MWD, and if it's got one of those fit then having a bonus to your web range is completely moot because you can already catch 99% of kiters even with NO web.

My point is simply this; supposedly testing made this ship OP, in light of the fact that the Daredevil, which remains relatively unchanged (apart from getting more lock range,) is currently far and away the best Pirate Frigate, and will be secured a spot even further ahead of the Cruor when this change takes place. The Cruor was, IMO the only pirate frig that was ever able to give a Daredevil a good fight. This change makes the Daredevil completely undisputed and best pick for every scenario you might even consider the Cruor. And the Cruor, doesn't gain a "niche role" because this role already exists for a frigate and is extraordinarily rare to ever see used as it is, nevermind when you have to pay 3 times the price for the same, no correction - less, usefulness.

So I will ask again on the matter. What tests were done that made the Cruor too strong? What is your threshold for too strong? The way it stands I can think of a number of T1, 500k isk frigates that will lay a thrashing to your proposed Cruor, perhaps THEY are too strong.Roll
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#1480 - 2014-04-03 20:01:23 UTC
The Succubus looks exciting, and I'm definitely excited about what might happen to the Phantasm. In other news I have quite a few of both. And a lot of Sansha LP. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.