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I am X but I fly Y

Author
Anslo
Scope Works
#181 - 2014-03-31 15:31:25 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
I just find it adorable how everyone in TSF have matching backgrounds in their portrait.


I have no idea what you're on about.

Verin of course misses the point entirely.

And Andreus foams at the mouth in a fantasy world devoid of interaction with reality.

Have I missed anything? Oh I would like to say, Anslo, I have to commend you on something. Unlike many people you are actually flying out and attempting to accomplish something. So good on you I suppose.

And I thank you for being civil and for your your compliment, I suppose.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#182 - 2014-03-31 16:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Tiberious, I respect your integrity as the moderator of one of my favourite comms channels, but I don't trust your honesty in any other arena.

Why? Because you have in the past voiced opinions which are utterly at odds with the fact of reality and events so far as they could be independently verified. I don't just mean forgivable misunderstandings here, I mean that you have, with a perfectly straight face and every indication of sincerity, stood there and expressed directly and absurdly false sentiments.

I can see only two possible interpretations: Either you are an expert liar, or you are hopelessly deluded.

I'd take it as a compliment that my opinion of your competence is such that I consider the former to be more likely.

Kuvakei's founding act when he created Nation was a breach of contract. True Slaves were a horrific violation of the trust of millions who emigrated to Sansha's Nation. Slave raids into empire space were - and are - a violation of the very terms of interstellar law and treaty that Kuvakei demands be respected in regard to the borders of his own promised land. In other words, he plays by the rules when it suits him, and ignores them freely if doing so would advance his agenda.

Throw in the fact that you are an avowed devotee of his and have - I repeat - lied to my face about the nature of those slave raids, and I can hardly be blamed for not trusting your word any further than I could propel a titan by kicking it.

Nor, then, can I be blamed for counselling somebody I like when I see that they have entered a potentially dangerous and foolish relationship with you. There are people in Pyre Falcon that I care about, and I'm eager to see the corp thrive and serve the State well, even if we don't always see eye-to-eye.

If I've "missed the point" then a clarification may be in order, and it had better be a bloody good one.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2014-03-31 16:57:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Evi Polevhia wrote:


I have no idea what you're on about.



You
all
have
the
same
portrait backgrounds

It's really cute and edgy. Since Pyre seems to be quite fond of you lot, they should join in and get matching backgrounds too! It would br "desu kawaii" as Caldari youth seem to enjoy saying.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#184 - 2014-03-31 17:09:01 UTC
Verin, you should be certain that legal considerations have been made prior to this, the extent of which will not be shared for strategical reasons. The boundary conditions are significant, but as a rule of thumb it means that no one who wouldn't face a shooting squad when tried in the State would be eligible. Additionally, there are multiple legal spheres which are to be considerated, some of them relevant, others not.

Personally, I'd be much more concerned about the number of people who died in the various wreckages that have been produced for one case or the other, as they're dwarfing the number causing so much outrage by multiple dimensions, most likely without having a considerably better return on actual caldari who get a second chance. I'll gladly see some laws bent thoroughly for that, although I agree that the position condemning the events is much easier to handle - they've already been lost. Moral relativism works both ways, apparently.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Anslo
Scope Works
#185 - 2014-03-31 18:00:30 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
"desu kawaii"

desu what now???

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Vectra Sharpe
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2014-03-31 18:49:57 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
"desu kawaii"

desu what now???


I think it means "super cute" but I may be wrong. I'm not too familiar with Caldari native slang.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#187 - 2014-03-31 19:32:24 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
"desu kawaii"

desu what now???

I don't know what "desu" is, but I feel that we need moar of it.....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

DeadRow
Blue Canary
Watch This
#188 - 2014-03-31 20:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: DeadRow
Stitcher wrote:
Except... Nation are not trustworthy. I have known pretty much everybody in TS-F to tell direct lies about both Nation and their own corporation with a straight face and in the teeth of overwhelming facts. Kuvakei himself has zero regard for treaties and civilized agreements: He does only whatever is in his best interests, according to his own evaluation, without a second thought for integrity.


Sansha's Nation or TSF has always stuck by any treaties or agreements that has been accepted by us. It has always been on the parties on the other side who break or cancel agreed arrangements. Like, as Tiberious mentioned, the Amarr and Caldari pushing us away when pressure was applied to them.

Stitcher wrote:
What guarantee do you have that the citizens you rescue haven't been through the vats already? We have recordings of live, on-air footage from a reporter who got an interview with Kuvakei himself only to be assimilated in minutes by a swarm of airborne nanites, the same technology being used in the YC112 "Upliftings" to march terrified human puppets into the holds of waiting transports

What guarantee can you honestly make with the rigour required of a trained security specialist, that you have not delivered men and women back to their relieved families carrying the seed of a Sansha sleeper cell? There will be enough of them riddling our society as it is. Arrangements such as this are cracks in our armour, loopholes in our security.


What would we gain from giving Pyre converted crew? When, not if as these things always come out, it is revealed we had done so. It would eliminate the possibility of future deals as well as the existing one with Pyre Falcon. Thus is is logical for us to give Pyre, and any who wish to come to us regarding crew's who have been collected by us, 'clean' Caldari citizens.


Stitcher wrote:
And on what basis are you convicting the crews you hand over to the vats of piracy? You know full well that most capsuleer crew sign on for a tour and spend months hard at work with their head down, earning a fortune to retire on and getting the hell out as soon as they can. Most don't even know the name of their pilot, what system they're in, what they're doing, what corp they fly for. Many more are slaves. Merely being aboard a pirate's ship is not indicative of being guilty of piracy, or even of being aware that piracy was going on.


Do you keep all crew members isolated from each other? Do you not allow them to go outside the ship when docked? If not then the crew undoubtedly have every idea of what they have gotten into. Smaller vessels are such that the Crew are just as vital to running a fully kitted out ship as the Capsuleer and if they don't know why the ship is going into combat, then that is their fault. Larger ships, the crew most likely talk and gossip amongst themselves and similar information would be easily available. To paint crew as ignorant in the goings of the ship they are aboard is the height of the capsuleer superiority complex.

Stitcher wrote:
  • This enemy having avowed that contracts are honoured only for as long as they remain in their best interest.


  • Yes, we continue our relation with Pyre because it is in the best interested. As they keep it because it is in their best interest (the interest of retrieving Caldari Citizens). Any entity that keeps contracts that aren't in their best interest is either being forced to by a superior entity or is plain stupid. If this relationship stops being in our interest we would contact Pyre and discuss renegotiation of the terms, if that fails we would then cancel the agreement.

    We, unlike your corporation, would not publicly announce the break down the agreement without trying to discuss it. Oh you said it was finished to us before it was announced, but no talks were had.

    And finally,

    Stitcher wrote:
    Slave raids into empire space were - and are - a violation of the very terms of interstellar law and treaty that Kuvakei demands be respected in regard to the borders of his own promised land.


    The Raids happened after the Amarr went back on their deal with Sansha's Nation and after the Big Four tried to curb stomp us. It is retaliation because we are at war with the Empires. No peace accord has been signed during or since the Fall, Kuvakei hasn't signed or agreed to any interstellar law or treaty because the Empires didn't give him the chance.

    ~Hikari
    Foley Aberas Jones
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #189 - 2014-03-31 20:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Foley Aberas Jones
    Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
    Anslo wrote:
    Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
    Andreus Ixiris wrote:
    Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
    For crews like yours, we have an arrangement with TSF whereby we can swap them for Caldari POWs before they go into Nation's vats for processing. Sleep well.

    Wow.

    I don't think I've ever completely lost respect for an entire organisation and every individual associated with it so quickly or nonchalantly before.


    The people we rescue tend to think differently. And really, the penalty for Piracy is death anyway, isn't it?


    Try it.


    Try? Shooting pirates? I might have done that once or twice.



    wait a second

    Your saying you are against pirates......


    Yet your organization is suppose to be working with another organization affiliated with pirates.....

    but is that also high treason to all 4 empires?


    So......


    That makes your organization Pirates and traitors......Orders or not, you are still working with the terrorists
    TomHorn
    Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
    #190 - 2014-03-31 21:06:31 UTC
    We all know, Pyre Falcon Defence and Security are State loyalist organisation. Sansha nation are seen as a threat to the empires as criminals or terrorists.

    Im interested to know how the liberals now see Pyre Falcon Defence and Security coporation, because of their treaty with TS-F. Standings wise, how do you now see them, terrible ,bad, neutral, good, excellent. Do you now regard them as criminals or terrorists yourselves, do you conside them to be kill on sight, due to the fact that they handover people they class, to be priates to the TS-F.
    Stitcher
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #191 - 2014-03-31 21:29:28 UTC
    TomHorn wrote:
    I'm interested to know how the liberals now see Pyre Falcon Defence and Security corporation, because of their treaty with TS-F. Standings wise, how do you now see them, terrible ,bad, neutral, good, excellent. Do you now regard them as criminals or terrorists yourselves, do you consider them to be kill on sight, due to the fact that they handover people they class, to be pirates to the TS-F.


    Standing for my money answers precisely one question: "Do we shoot them?"

    To which the answers are:

    Red: yes
    Orange: yes
    Neutral: yes
    Light blue: no.
    Strong blue: no.

    It's a system that's much too linear for more nuanced attitudes like "I respect you and recognise that we have common goals and allegiance but disagree with some of your political attitudes and am uneasy about some of your diplomatic arrangements."

    Being neutral to ALXVP, Pyre Falcon were already shoot-on-sight if they entered Origin. Given that I doubt they ever will - after all, they have no reason to - that's not actually likely to result in either of us appearing on one another's killboards. It'd be a bit contrary of us to overturn our policy of neutrality when we ourselves only just reset our blue standings towards TS-F.

    AKA Hambone

    Author of The Deathworlders

    TomHorn
    Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
    #192 - 2014-03-31 22:30:10 UTC
    Ok Stitcher, your corp have them neutral, which also means KOS.

    Regarding Sansha nation are classified as criminals throughout the Empires. Pyre Falcon are handing over people to Sansha nation. You do not believe that Pyre Falcon should also be classified as criminals or terrorists. I think that is your stance Stitcher. You disagree with their association with TS-F , but their handing over of people to the TS-F for the Sansha nation programming, does not classify their corporation to be considered illegal, criminal or terrorist organisation, as far as you are concerned.
    Tiberious Thessalonia
    True Slave Foundations
    #193 - 2014-04-01 00:28:12 UTC
    Show us where we have ever broken a deal, Stitcher.

    Because you can't.

    Because we haven't.

    On the other hand, you managed to successfully turn Alexylva Paradox from a promising group that harboured differing but similar goals, and softer methods, into a group that is Just Another Group of Capsuleers.

    So congratulations, you have managed to do reverse alchemy and turn dross gold into brilliant lead. Congratulations.
    Fredfredbug4
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #194 - 2014-04-01 00:28:34 UTC
    I guess the reason Pyre treats its prisoners well is to clear their conscience of the terrible things they are about to do for them.

    Gallenteans may not treat prisoners the best we should. But we're damn sure they will survive and one day will return home.

    Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

    Foley Aberas Jones
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #195 - 2014-04-01 00:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Foley Aberas Jones
    Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
    Show us where we have ever broken a deal, Stitcher.

    Because you can't.

    Because we haven't.

    On the other hand, you managed to successfully turn Alexylva Paradox from a promising group that harboured differing but similar goals, and softer methods, into a group that is Just Another Group of Capsuleers.

    So congratulations, you have managed to do reverse alchemy and turn dross gold into brilliant lead. Congratulations.



    Tibs have i ever told you, that you are my 4th favorite person ever in New Eden? right under Tibus heth (because hes a badass to me) and Anslo, then Diana Kim....Because reasons
    Tiberious Thessalonia
    True Slave Foundations
    #196 - 2014-04-01 01:03:00 UTC
    Fredfredbug4 wrote:
    I guess the reason Pyre treats its prisoners well is to clear their conscience of the terrible things they are about to do for them.

    Gallenteans may not treat prisoners the best we should. But we're damn sure they will survive and one day will return home.


    Why are you imprisoning people who would ever return to normal? Why not find some better way to deal with minor transgressions.

    As it stands, the people that Pyre give us are still alive. The people we give Pyre are still alive, when normal capsuleers would leave them to die and not give it a second thought.

    It sounds to me like our deal is saving many more lives than not making a deal would do!
    Stitcher
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #197 - 2014-04-01 01:32:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
    TomHorn wrote:
    Regarding Sansha nation are classified as criminals throughout the Empires. Pyre Falcon are handing over people to Sansha nation. You do not believe that Pyre Falcon should also be classified as criminals or terrorists. I think that is your stance Stitcher. You disagree with their association with TS-F , but their handing over of people to the TS-F for the Sansha nation programming, does not classify their corporation to be considered illegal, criminal or terrorist organisation, as far as you are concerned.


    Oh, it does. In fact I already reminded them that it does. I distinctly recall mentioning the twin crimes against the laws of the State of selling people into slavery and of sentence without due process.

    You could throw in all sorts. Aiding and abetting an enemy of the State, neglectful compromise of national security, unlawful business with a criminal faction... I bet a talented prosecutor could stretch the list out to be as long as my leg.

    All of which is rendered slightly polemical by the capsuleer status of the involved parties. In practice, Empyreans are bound only by the laws they accept and submit to, and given that the empires know this it's rare for charges to be pressed. Although as I recall the last time that happened it turned out very interestingly.

    The thing is, I believe in mistakes and in redemption. Honest failure to think things through happens to the best of us. Couple that with the frequent futility of legal process against an Empyrean, and... well.

    There are only two ways this can go, really - I either say my bit, clarify and justify it where necessary, and hope that they agree and reconsider, or else I can devote my own resources and time to destroying their ships and assets in an attempt to bankrupt them by way of unofficial justice: an objective I highly doubt I could succeed at, even if I were inclined to make the attempt.

    Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
    Show us where we have ever broken a deal, Stitcher.

    Because you can't.

    Because we haven't.

    On the other hand, you managed to successfully turn Alexylva Paradox from a promising group that harboured differing but similar goals, and softer methods, into a group that is Just Another Group of Capsuleers.

    So congratulations, you have managed to do reverse alchemy and turn dross gold into brilliant lead. Congratulations.


    Hmm, and it seems that you're a touch upset about that. Was the gold I reverse-alchemized your golden opportunity or something?

    I expressed an opinion to the board, we discussed it at length over some months, my reasoning was ultimately accepted after long deliberation, and we reset standings. The objectives of the Renaissance colony, Origin and everything that ALXVP are trying to accomplish there are completely unchanged. Independent transhumanism is still alive and well in that regard.

    It's just that now, a corporation who vocally affiliate with a would-be nation that invades, abducts and enslaves vulnerable colonists is on the "get off our lawn" list. Deal-breakers or not, that one looks like a net gain in security to me. You are, after all, not actually empowered to make guarantees and write contracts for Nation, even if Nation itself could be trusted to honour them, which it can't.

    Don't get too fixated on challenging me about whether or not you have ever broken a deal. Even if that were the case (laying aside for a second the question of whether you haven't, or whether you were just too smart to be caught) then that's just a cut at the periphery of my observations: the vital core remains unharmed, the central point is unrefuted.

    Let me remind you of that core: Your ultimate goal is to advance Nation. You don't necessarily NEED to break a deal in order to accomplish that if honouring that deal yields a sufficient profit. Whether or not you are obedient to the terms of the agreement, you aren't returning those prisoners out of the goodness of your twisted little clockwork hearts. You're getting something out of that prisoner transfer, there's an angle you're working, some gain that pays for the time and resources spent making the exchange, and which is obtuse enough to not arouse suspicion.

    If you're going to prove me wrong on THAT one, then you need to do a lot better than trying to obfuscate it by challenging me on the unimportant outlying details. If I've been unfair with regards to your history of honouring (or not) your deals, then I apologise... But I've not been unfair in calling you liars.

    AKA Hambone

    Author of The Deathworlders

    Fredfredbug4
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #198 - 2014-04-01 02:22:23 UTC
    Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
    Fredfredbug4 wrote:
    I guess the reason Pyre treats its prisoners well is to clear their conscience of the terrible things they are about to do for them.

    Gallenteans may not treat prisoners the best we should. But we're damn sure they will survive and one day will return home.


    Why are you imprisoning people who would ever return to normal? Why not find some better way to deal with minor transgressions.

    As it stands, the people that Pyre give us are still alive. The people we give Pyre are still alive, when normal capsuleers would leave them to die and not give it a second thought.

    It sounds to me like our deal is saving many more lives than not making a deal would do!


    Death would be a referable alternative to being turned into a living computer. True Slaves are alive only im a purely biological sense. The actual person they once were has been murdered.

    Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

    Primus Aulmais
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #199 - 2014-04-01 03:07:43 UTC
    On-topic post: I am Intaki, and I fly Federation-designed ships (with a particular attachment to the Algos-class destroyer). Cool
    DeadRow
    Blue Canary
    Watch This
    #200 - 2014-04-01 03:40:52 UTC
    Stitcher wrote:
    Let me remind you of that core: Your ultimate goal is to advance Nation. You don't necessarily NEED to break a deal in order to accomplish that if honouring that deal yields a sufficient profit. Whether or not you are obedient to the terms of the agreement, you aren't returning those prisoners out of the goodness of your twisted little clockwork hearts. You're getting something out of that prisoner transfer, there's an angle you're working, some gain that pays for the time and resources spent making the exchange, and which is obtuse enough to not arouse suspicion.

    If you're going to prove me wrong on THAT one, then you need to do a lot better than trying to obfuscate it by challenging me on the unimportant outlying details. If I've been unfair with regards to your history of honouring (or not) your deals, then I apologise... But I've not been unfair in calling you liars.


    I don't get it.

    You're accusing us of benefiting from a deal we made with another party? Of course we do. That is literally the point of making deals and agreements with others. Is so you are better off. Just because we are better off doesn't mean that Pyre or any other parties that have deals with us are worse off. We aren't proving you wrong because it's obvious.

    You're last posts could be accurately summed up copying Ixiris and going 'Hurr Durr Nation is bad [insert ****** insult here]'. We get it. You think we are nasty. Pyre might think we're nasty too, but they get their hands dirty and do what they think is best for their nation. Rather than shout loudly at a feed.

    ~Hikari