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PI - Highsec Custom Offices services way too expensive

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Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-11-30 06:50:09 UTC
Yeah yeah, another thread - prices based on old values w/e.


So we get Concord, pay a crapton more ISk but we still have to wait 8 secs on top of that?

I'm not a fan of posting whine threads, but I guess I have no choice.

The costs for transfering goods are WAY too high.

On top of that, still have PI bugs. It's still a clickfest. It takes a helluva time to establish desired colonies.


I can live with all the bugs and stress and clickfest, but those raised transport/transfer costs are TOO HIGH.

I'd be dispatching mercs and agents to assasinate the Custom Officers and take over that damn office just now if I could...

Plus, t2/p2 products - I think the transfer on some cost more than the actual outcome.

Now if this is some kind of way of forcing people into 0.0, I'd understand it if there were a statement -- but why the hell do we keep seeing upgrades on highsec lvl4 every now and then too? Roll


"Winter patch will be great. We listen to player community..." - which moron wished ridiculous pricing on Custom Office?

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#2 - 2011-11-30 06:56:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
They have to make you WANT to put up a POCO up, now don't they ?
If your taxes are, say, 4m ISK/day/colony, and you have, say, 3 alts working the same planet... a POCO could pay for itself and then some if it manages to survive about 2 weeks or thereabouts.
So... put one up :P

P.S. Also, one extra incentive to get out of highsec. At least as far as PI is concerned.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-11-30 07:54:52 UTC
Just raise the end product prices. That is what everyone else have done.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Ariane VoxDei
#4 - 2011-11-30 09:55:54 UTC
Deena Amaj wrote:
"Winter patch will be great. We listen to player community..." - which moron wished ridiculous pricing on Custom Office?

Scrapyard bob
goons
And some people who had enough smarts to not say that in public.

Basically people of the kind of mind that insists on forcing others to play their way - and preferably be their perpetual tearshedding victims.

Others chimed in later, once they realized which way the wind was blowing, to display their support for those who got it their way, along with a few stockholmsyndromers.
I'm dismissing the after-the-fact idiots who think they will make bigger profits from PI in hisec now. Their old piles net them more, but only because those were already taxed with the old rates. Their freshly exported stuff has a much larger tax bill attached, but its like explaining opportunity cost to those microindustrials who mine and think their minerals (or rather their time) has no value.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#5 - 2011-11-30 10:17:34 UTC
Deena Amaj wrote:
Plus, t2/p2 products - I think the transfer on some cost more than the actual outcome.

The taxes are 10% of 9,000 isk for P2 items (900 isk for the mathematically challenged such as the OP).

The cheapest P2 in Jita right now is 4,500 isk, while most are in the 9,000-12,000 isk range. How is that under 900 isk?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#6 - 2011-11-30 11:29:50 UTC
It's not as if market prices wouldn't eventually adjust upwards to at least partially compensate for the increased NPC-customs taxes...

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-11-30 12:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Omega Flames
Jack Dant wrote:
Deena Amaj wrote:
Plus, t2/p2 products - I think the transfer on some cost more than the actual outcome.

The taxes are 10% of 9,000 isk for P2 items (900 isk for the mathematically challenged such as the OP).

The cheapest P2 in Jita right now is 4,500 isk, while most are in the 9,000-12,000 isk range. How is that under 900 isk?

The maths... (using test cultures as it has the highest profit margin if you are buying P1 to make test cultures, all maths are using Jita buy prices, import taxes are 1/2 the export tax)

To make 5 units of test cultures you must use 40 units of Bacteria and 40 units of Water.
40 units of Bacteria x 163.10 isk p/u = 6,524 isk.
40 units of Water x 412 isk p/u = 16,480 isk.
Which puts the material cost at 23,004 isk for 5 test cultures (4,600.8 isk p/u).
The export tax of test cultures is now at 900 isk p/u (4,500 isk for 5).
The import tax for Bacteria/Water is 25 isk p/u (2,000 isk for 80).
Total tax (import+export) is 6,500 isk.
Total cost (total tax + material cost) is 29,504 isk for 5 test cultures (5,900.8 isk p/u).
Test Cultures are 7,301 isk p/u.
Total profit p/u (test cultures p/u - total cost p/u) is 1,400.2 isk.

Old import tax for Bacteria/Water is .38 isk p/u (30.4 isk for 80).
Old export tax for Test Cultures is 9 isk p/u (45 isk for 5).
Old total tax is 75.4 isk (15.08 isk p/u).
Old total cost is 4,615.88 isk p/u.
Old total profit p/u is 2,685.12.

Net change due to tax increases is a loss of 1,284.92 isk p/u.
That is a removal of 52.14% of the profit.
The other P2 products are going to be much worse.
Nova Valor
Nunc per Ludum
#8 - 2011-11-30 12:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Valor
Looks great omega.

CCP - Can i P.I sp remap plexz!?! would love to put the 2,6msp i wasted on P.I skills on something more useful atm.

*P.s. let me do industry sp remap also while ur at it. And my 24msp invention/research sp.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-11-30 13:40:53 UTC
I did not do the extreme math but Senior Omega Flame did point out what is going on.

Thank you omega.


Quote:
The taxes are 10% of 9,000 isk for P2 items (900 isk for the mathematically challenged such as the OP).


Mathematically challenged?
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that you are paying a crapton just for transporting things back and for up to oblivion. Please think a bit more out of the box, Jack in the Box.

I don't know how you are doing your PI. I could care less because you obviously missed my point. If you have to already pay a crapton of ISK just for moving from planet to Custom Office each time... In this case, you do the math.


Look, we're not morons either. I did not say we could not adapt and it is not like we can't adapt. I just find it ridiculous that they (CCP) come with this "GREAT NEWS: PI imporved" flag; and fix what wasn't actually broken.

In the end, it is us producers who will have just adapt. But I don't want to hear the consumers go to CCP b****ing around like I am that putting the tax into end price is too high and CCP in the end doing something after all.

I don't mean to be doing planetary carebearing in Highsec that much either. I am a 0.0 player and I understand the general "Get bears and scarycats using lvl4 out of Highsec" comment. But that's more or less the point. They "nerf" PI highsec profits, as if the planets weren't already craptacular enough, but still keep a variety of lvl4s etc as they are.

But let me put it this way.
I can go to 0.0, serve my corp as usual and do 0.0 PI. Bring the crap back to Highsec. Put the Highsec taxation it - Aww, wow, major profits. So I'm not losing, I think I'd almost say CCP indirectly buffed 0.0.

Is that good? You tell me. It's my wallet that I will just have to re-introduce to Miss 0.0 PI.
I am just worried about the market man and the illogical step of nerfing Highsec at the wrong spot. There are players out there who don't have it that easy and trying to get a foothold with POS'es and such.

Anyhow, I guess we can just say "What a shame".

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#10 - 2011-11-30 14:39:27 UTC
The problem is that the values are not fixed. The people passing the cost along to the customers means that the taxes, conceivably, will climb higher and higher, meaning that there effectively becomes no point to high and low sec PI.
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-11-30 15:23:04 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:

The maths... (using test cultures as it has the highest profit margin if you are buying P1 to make test cultures, all maths are using Jita buy prices, import taxes are 1/2 the export tax)

To make 5 units of test cultures you must use 40 units of Bacteria and 40 units of Water.
40 units of Bacteria x 163.10 isk p/u = 6,524 isk.
40 units of Water x 412 isk p/u = 16,480 isk.
Which puts the material cost at 23,004 isk for 5 test cultures (4,600.8 isk p/u).
The export tax of test cultures is now at 900 isk p/u (4,500 isk for 5).
The import tax for Bacteria/Water is 25 isk p/u (2,000 isk for 80).
Total tax (import+export) is 6,500 isk.
Total cost (total tax + material cost) is 29,504 isk for 5 test cultures (5,900.8 isk p/u).
Test Cultures are 7,301 isk p/u.
Total profit p/u (test cultures p/u - total cost p/u) is 1,400.2 isk.

Old import tax for Bacteria/Water is .38 isk p/u (30.4 isk for 80).
Old export tax for Test Cultures is 9 isk p/u (45 isk for 5).
Old total tax is 75.4 isk (15.08 isk p/u).
Old total cost is 4,615.88 isk p/u.
Old total profit p/u is 2,685.12.

Net change due to tax increases is a loss of 1,284.92 isk p/u.
That is a removal of 52.14% of the profit.
The other P2 products are going to be much worse.


The tax on all the other P2's would be the same if you keep the same setup of import P1's to build the P2. The tax being 1300 isk per unit. It jumps to 1500 isk per unit if you import the P0's to build the P2. But if you're extracting the P0's and building the P2, then the tax is only 900 isk per unit. However, this says nothing of the cost to buy those initial products.

Asteroid Timer: Know exactly when that roid depletes! PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them!
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-11-30 16:35:11 UTC
electrostatus wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:

The maths... (using test cultures as it has the highest profit margin if you are buying P1 to make test cultures, all maths are using Jita buy prices, import taxes are 1/2 the export tax)

To make 5 units of test cultures you must use 40 units of Bacteria and 40 units of Water.
40 units of Bacteria x 163.10 isk p/u = 6,524 isk.
40 units of Water x 412 isk p/u = 16,480 isk.
Which puts the material cost at 23,004 isk for 5 test cultures (4,600.8 isk p/u).
The export tax of test cultures is now at 900 isk p/u (4,500 isk for 5).
The import tax for Bacteria/Water is 25 isk p/u (2,000 isk for 80).
Total tax (import+export) is 6,500 isk.
Total cost (total tax + material cost) is 29,504 isk for 5 test cultures (5,900.8 isk p/u).
Test Cultures are 7,301 isk p/u.
Total profit p/u (test cultures p/u - total cost p/u) is 1,400.2 isk.

Old import tax for Bacteria/Water is .38 isk p/u (30.4 isk for 80).
Old export tax for Test Cultures is 9 isk p/u (45 isk for 5).
Old total tax is 75.4 isk (15.08 isk p/u).
Old total cost is 4,615.88 isk p/u.
Old total profit p/u is 2,685.12.

Net change due to tax increases is a loss of 1,284.92 isk p/u.
That is a removal of 52.14% of the profit.
The other P2 products are going to be much worse.


The tax on all the other P2's would be the same if you keep the same setup of import P1's to build the P2. The tax being 1300 isk per unit. It jumps to 1500 isk per unit if you import the P0's to build the P2. But if you're extracting the P0's and building the P2, then the tax is only 900 isk per unit. However, this says nothing of the cost to buy those initial products.

I was refering to "That is a removal of 52.14% of the profit." when I said "The other P2 products are going to be much worse." due to them not being as profitable as test cultures so they will have a much higher % profit lost.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#13 - 2011-11-30 17:07:25 UTC
I'm not totaly sure what to think about this as I'm making the stuff my self but I don't see it as a good thing. Not even if I think I will get more isks from this.

Prices will go up and at this time P.I. effects a huge portion of EVE.

And if someone thinks empire tax is bad. It will be as bad in 0.0 when the greedy alliance leaders figure out that "hey free ships and isks for us". So no I don't like this, not one bit, except that there are more stuff to shoot at in space. But thats is, and not even that can balance all the downsides in this.

So less taxing ccp. pls. Plus I have a feeling that the empire tax will show a guidline for lowsec and 0.0 taxing also so it has an effect also what it is.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Linka Romanov
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2011-11-30 17:23:22 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
Deena Amaj wrote:
Plus, t2/p2 products - I think the transfer on some cost more than the actual outcome.

The taxes are 10% of 9,000 isk for P2 items (900 isk for the mathematically challenged such as the OP).

The cheapest P2 in Jita right now is 4,500 isk, while most are in the 9,000-12,000 isk range. How is that under 900 isk?

The maths... (using test cultures as it has the highest profit margin if you are buying P1 to make test cultures, all maths are using Jita buy prices, import taxes are 1/2 the export tax)

To make 5 units of test cultures you must use 40 units of Bacteria and 40 units of Water.
40 units of Bacteria x 163.10 isk p/u = 6,524 isk.
40 units of Water x 412 isk p/u = 16,480 isk.
Which puts the material cost at 23,004 isk for 5 test cultures (4,600.8 isk p/u).
The export tax of test cultures is now at 900 isk p/u (4,500 isk for 5).
The import tax for Bacteria/Water is 25 isk p/u (2,000 isk for 80).
Total tax (import+export) is 6,500 isk.
Total cost (total tax + material cost) is 29,504 isk for 5 test cultures (5,900.8 isk p/u).
Test Cultures are 7,301 isk p/u.
Total profit p/u (test cultures p/u - total cost p/u) is 1,400.2 isk.

Old import tax for Bacteria/Water is .38 isk p/u (30.4 isk for 80).
Old export tax for Test Cultures is 9 isk p/u (45 isk for 5).
Old total tax is 75.4 isk (15.08 isk p/u).
Old total cost is 4,615.88 isk p/u.
Old total profit p/u is 2,685.12.

Net change due to tax increases is a loss of 1,284.92 isk p/u.
That is a removal of 52.14% of the profit.
The other P2 products are going to be much worse.


Two things:

1) Prices will adjust upward for items that are currently unprofitable. If an item is currently a losing proposition, I suggest you consider investing in it, as it is pretty much guaranteed to rise in price as manufacturers stop bringing unprofitable wares to market, interfering with the supply.

2) This change gives extraction planets a benefit over factory planets. By extracting P0s and going as far in the chain as possible, you avoid import/export fees (or even importing P1s and producing up to P3s/P4s). Your tax burden is much lower if you extract your bacteria and water on the same planet you build the test cultures on. This brings the profit potential of extraction planets more in line than pure factory planets, which is a good thing.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-11-30 17:39:20 UTC
Linka Romanov wrote:


Two things:

1) Prices will adjust upward for items that are currently unprofitable. If an item is currently a losing proposition, I suggest you consider investing in it, as it is pretty much guaranteed to rise in price as manufacturers stop bringing unprofitable wares to market, interfering with the supply.

2) This change gives extraction planets a benefit over factory planets. By extracting P0s and going as far in the chain as possible, you avoid import/export fees (or even importing P1s and producing up to P3s/P4s). Your tax burden is much lower if you extract your bacteria and water on the same planet you build the test cultures on. This brings the profit potential of extraction planets more in line than pure factory planets, which is a good thing.

You should prob do some maths for yourself cause both of your points are dead wrong. Half of the P2 and P3 products have been unprofitable (ie you actually lose isk if you make them) at least for the past 2 months i've been watching them. On top of it if you have both factories (making anything higher than P1) and extractors on a planet then you are actually losing alot of production capability due to extractors requiring so much pg.
Amon Sono
Gnome Industries
#16 - 2011-11-30 17:41:52 UTC
The changes in PI I think will make null sec PI more interesting but screw over low and high sec PI. Doing PI in low or high sec is already more of a hobby rather then a serious isk making enterprise. It will benefit large corps in low sec as they will have the power to deploy and defend POCO's but for everyone else it makes it not worth doing . It makes high sec PI even more worthless then it is already

This is just another lesson that CCP refuses to learn. Most players don't want to live on the edge. The majority of the community prefer a safe enviroment where they don't have to pvp
Velicitia
XS Tech
#17 - 2011-11-30 18:08:17 UTC
Akita T wrote:
They have to make you WANT to put up a POCO up, now don't they ?
If your taxes are, say, 4m ISK/day/colony, and you have, say, 3 alts working the same planet... a POCO could pay for itself and then some if it manages to survive about 2 weeks or thereabouts.
So... put one up :P

P.S. Also, one extra incentive to get out of highsec. At least as far as PI is concerned.


^this.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Linka Romanov
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2011-11-30 19:10:21 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:
Linka Romanov wrote:


Two things:

1) Prices will adjust upward for items that are currently unprofitable. If an item is currently a losing proposition, I suggest you consider investing in it, as it is pretty much guaranteed to rise in price as manufacturers stop bringing unprofitable wares to market, interfering with the supply.

2) This change gives extraction planets a benefit over factory planets. By extracting P0s and going as far in the chain as possible, you avoid import/export fees (or even importing P1s and producing up to P3s/P4s). Your tax burden is much lower if you extract your bacteria and water on the same planet you build the test cultures on. This brings the profit potential of extraction planets more in line than pure factory planets, which is a good thing.

You should prob do some maths for yourself cause both of your points are dead wrong. Half of the P2 and P3 products have been unprofitable (ie you actually lose isk if you make them) at least for the past 2 months i've been watching them. On top of it if you have both factories (making anything higher than P1) and extractors on a planet then you are actually losing alot of production capability due to extractors requiring so much pg.


So because prices haven't adjusted, they can never adjust properly? If PI goods are below the breakeven price, it's either because pre-tyrranis stockpiles still exist or because idiots are manufacturing them. If the former is the case, the stockpiles will (eventually) be depleted. If it's the latter, then adjusting the tax rates isn't going to stop the idiots from depressing the market and losing isk.

Fact is, if you're exporting to factory planets at every stage, sure you're going to get screwed on taxes. I would argue that the fact that you could completely ignore their impact on your bottom line previously is probative of the fact that, from a game design perspective, they were too low.

If you produce locally on the same planet you extract from, then the new taxes aren't going to have nearly as much of an impact on your bottom line. The fact that you can't make money shoving 20 factories onto a planet anymore doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of other viable setups.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-11-30 19:45:41 UTC
Amon Sono wrote:
The changes in PI I think will make null sec PI more interesting but screw over low and high sec PI. Doing PI in low or high sec is already more of a hobby rather then a serious isk making enterprise. It will benefit large corps in low sec as they will have the power to deploy and defend POCO's but for everyone else it makes it not worth doing . It makes high sec PI even more worthless then it is already

This is just another lesson that CCP refuses to learn. Most players don't want to live on the edge. The majority of the community prefer a safe enviroment where they don't have to pvp


Well, I managed to find a way with Highsec PI.
Doesn't make me a better person over you, but that's for nobody to decide, tbh.

But people always tend to hope for somebody else's fortune to break up.

I'm (quite) certain you still have the do the annoying 8sec wait per transfer with a POCO, too.


Look, what's pissing me off with this new Planet-**** is that it reminds me so of Blizzard's trillions of riduculous changes in WoW. Same crap, different game.
It all starts off with "Fixing what wasn't broken".
There was nothing wrong with taxing imo. But we still have clickfests; problems when routing mats only to abort the crap and do it all over again; no indicator/Selection key for buildings (Unless I missed something in the manual, but it's hell to find structures on certain blue planets); etc.

The list goes on. I don't want to know what other great bugs are still around despite reporting.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
mnybag1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2011-11-30 19:56:43 UTC
The problem with the taxes were they were out-dated. They were using 2 year old price indicies so you werent being charged anywhere close to what you should have being charged. They fixed it, so now you actually have to pay a little for your otherwise free-passive isk.
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