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The Roll of the T1 Battleship

Author
Sanai Nobuseri
Into the Ether
Out of the Blue.
#1 - 2014-03-31 01:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Sanai Nobuseri
Salutations Fellow Eve Pilots,


Ive been playing eve for a few years now and specialise in Heavy assault Cruisers and T3 cruisers for both Pvp and Pve and have had enormous success with them.

Recently, I have been maxing out skills because I am running out of things to train and have just finished 3 out of the 4 battleship classes so they can be flown with perfect skills, Having done this I am trying to figure out a use for them, or some sort of niche that they can fill that outperforms other ships of a smaller class.

I am finding it difficult, I wonder if its simply because I do not understand how the ship is supposed to be flown or if my eft is broken.

I can take a ship, say the Cerberus for instance Fit it up with Ham Missiles and easily break 600 dps with my skills with a reasonable Tank and can anom with them, or use them for pvp and the ship works perfectly, it has lower sig despite being shield tanked, moderate dps, its agile and has some nice speed.

I try to set up a battleship and they take forever to move, with nearly max skills Im barely able to push 800 dps, and the enormous sig radius seems to negate the little bit of extra ehp you get with the ship. The performance of everything is just horribad.

I take the Megathron and barely break 550 dps with Rails or 700 with blasters, Yes you can use void and get over 800 but your ability to hit anything without being right on top of it doesnt exist.

I take a Hyperion and can Rail fit it with t2 sentries and actually break 1k dps and be able to hit things in the mid range.

Rokh gets ****** dps, but has a little extra tank

Raven can get massive dps but cant hit **** more than 10km away and torpedos are so slow a cruiser with an mwd can out range the missile before it hits.

All of these ships get a much larger tank then their Hac equivalents but they dont seem to serve any purpose outside of being a shiney meat shield against a hostile fleet. And they are so unwieldy without an enormous amount of subcap suport they are sitting ducks.

(Also I am purposely leaving drone boats, Domi and Geddon out of this, they are just op)

My question is what is the purpose of the Bs, what roll do they perform that an Oracle or Tornado couldn't do for a fraction of the cost, or a well fit Ahac.

I understand every ship in eve is suppose to have a niche that its cappable of filling, but try as I might after playing with EFT and trying ships out to figure out how they fly I cannot seem to find any use of these ships at all? What do they do?

And yes people can argue Missions Missions Missions bleagh bleagh, but one a player has a descent amount of experience and is specialised with more then 5m points using a BS for LvL 4's is no longer efficient as a T3 does is 3x faster.

Someone please shed some light on what use these ships seem to have in Eve?

(Exception being the Maelstrom for Alpha)
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#2 - 2014-03-31 01:16:06 UTC
The bigger the ship, the more skills and T2 matters.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Sanai Nobuseri
Into the Ether
Out of the Blue.
#3 - 2014-03-31 01:19:45 UTC
I have perfect Battleship skills for Caldari, Gallente and Amarr, this includes BS5, t2 large weapons, torps, blasters, rails lasers, Armor tank, Shield tank etc.

I see no use for them that a Hac or T3 cannot do better and more efficiently, outside of a low sp character needing more survivablity to run Lvl 4 missions.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#4 - 2014-03-31 01:57:29 UTC
Health.

150k health is rather normal for a BS.

You are not getting anywhere near that with your cruiser / battlecruiser size ships.

So the roll is pure brute force on the dps/health ratio of your team.

Twice the health? Yes plz.

Other things like drones / neuting power are nice too.
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#5 - 2014-03-31 03:23:11 UTC
Insurable, mass producible ship of the line.

It's whole purpose is to absorb silly amounts of damage with repping support while it sits there and lobs volkswagons at the other guy.

A great replaceable tool for set piece fights ( I.e. Fights for structures ).

Sanai Nobuseri
Into the Ether
Out of the Blue.
#6 - 2014-03-31 03:29:27 UTC
So outside of the Dominix, Geddon for solo pvp, and the Maelstrom for pure Alpha. The Use of the T1 bs is simply to provide mid Level Dps, and High amounts of EHP to absorb Dps in front line warfare?

Ive seen Battleships outside of those 3 used on occasion, goons used to use Megathron Fleets, and N3 used Rokhs once upon a time I think but I have not seen much use out of the others.

Any other nice uses someone can come up with?

Also, the Pirate battleships are bloody Sick Vindicators and Machs are Bloody nasty, being able to get a mach to a 3.2 second warp time is quite nice.
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#7 - 2014-03-31 03:37:36 UTC
Other equally obvious role is as cap fleet bait....
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#8 - 2014-03-31 05:15:07 UTC
I'll start listing some, though it is late.
If I have to, I'll do more tomorrow.

T1 Torp Phoon
Overheat gets 1200 + DPS (used to get more but they nerfed 1 large drone)
1400 m's speed. It can run down, or run away from, almost all other BS
Has 2 utility high and 1 utilty mid
My fit gets about 70k hit points, but it can be fit for near 100k hp
Torps can hit anything in tackle range, BC or bigger.

T1 Tempest
Fast. Fly it like a BC but it will do 800+ DPS and also has great utility slots. 2 high, 2 mid.
It can also be a great Snipe ship with amazing alpha.
Tanks at 70k hp if I recall.

T1 Scorp.
Is a stand alone ship with the ECM bonus. you can sit at 120 and jam, target paint, launch Cruise as supporting DPS.
It has enough mids to tackle and can protect itself against a lone tackler if needed.

T1 Rokh
Tank in the mids and gank in the lows. Mine gets 1040 DPS. I could get more with an implant or a damage rig. I have neither.
It is also a decent station brawler.

T1 Megathron.
You should be getting 1200+ DPS from a blaster Mega, before overheating. Its meant to be a brawler. On stations, gates. Up close and personal. Add an implant and 1400 DPS is achievable.

T1 Apoc
Bonus' make it a great sniper, though damage selection is limited.
Great for killing Falcons though.
I have heard it's a good PvE ship. I have no personal experience with it though.

T1 Raven
It is the first BS for most missioners, and is probably the best 'first' mission boat. (if they like Caldari)
It will do amazing DPS as a PvP ship, but generally it will also be called as the first target by an FC.
You don't mind them in your fleet.....as long as your not the guy piloting them :P These pilots will eventually move up to a better PvP platform.

You mentioned some of the others, so I won't cover them.

Originally, or for a long time anyway, BS cost twice as much as BC, but they gave you twice the DPS and 3 times the tank.
So economically, you could lose 1 BS or lose 3 BC for the same hit points. With insurance, the BS was just a better deal.

Eve has evolved so that BS are 4 times the price, and pilots have adopted kite tactics that have reduced the BS to a dinosaur.
IMO, T1 BS need to become viable in the new skirmish type warfare, or eve will continue along the path as "Frigates Online"

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-03-31 06:56:06 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Health.

150k health is rather normal for a BS.

You are not getting anywhere near that with your cruiser / battlecruiser size ships.

So the roll is pure brute force on the dps/health ratio of your team.

Twice the health? Yes plz.

Other things like drones / neuting power are nice too.

Actually you are getting close to that with battlecruisers. Exceeding it with a T3 and its also a little misleading. While your T1 battleship might have 150k ehp it takes damage far in excess of T3's, HAC and even battlecruisers. Given that, in most cases it has far less practical EHP than other smaller ships that are faster and have a smaller sig.

Also regarding brute force, while your battleship might be doing 1k dps, its applies its damage sporadically or not at all in some cases depending on the target, its speed and sig radius.

To answer the OP's question, other than marauders, blops and specialized battleships like the Domi, Geddon and possibly the Scorpion, there is no actual reason to use T1 battleships other than range which is going to give you cruiser like dps anyway.

As for insurance, the insurance after spending 50 million barely covers the costs of the rigs let alone the hull.


CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-03-31 08:11:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Its kind of a rock paper scissors thing in the big fleet world.

Ahac's and T3 are just expensive kill mails if the enemy fleet is prepared for them (Webs primarally, but also a TP or 2 and weapon choice of the BS's) to the point that the larger enguagement range of battleships, big DPS, alpha and static EHP pushes them out in front.

However if the BS fleet isnt prepared, or has its support ships destroyed, Ahac's etc can get in under the guns and then its game over for the BS's

(This is very much simplified)

Also BS's are easier to make, cheeper than T3's and almost everyone and their aunt can fly one in the powerblocks.

Edit: Also if you pitted the Teir 3 against BS's with the same weapons... they are going to have a VERY hard time

No Worries

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#11 - 2014-03-31 08:39:29 UTC
Sanai Nobuseri wrote:

I take the Megathron and barely break 550 dps with Rails or 700 with blasters, Yes you can use void and get over 800 but your ability to hit anything without being right on top of it doesnt exist.


hmmmm, that dose not sound right, i get more dps out of unbonused beam lazors than you do out a blaster mega....that shouldn't be the case.

the battle ship class is all about big metrics, that's about it really soo they are somewhat situational and extremely vulnerable solo
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-03-31 11:04:14 UTC
I had a battleship.
It rolled a 6.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-03-31 13:51:59 UTC
a barrel roll imo.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Justin Cody
War Firm
#14 - 2014-03-31 15:06:16 UTC
The Battleship - is the king of the battlefield. It gives you the most damage and tank per unit of isk. If you have seen the large sov battles in the west involving CFC vs. NC. you would have seen massive megathron fleets.

Why?

They do great damage, track very well and at the end of the day are easily mass produced with very little effort. The Hyperion is a close range heavy tackle and brawl ship. It does feature a full drone bay...your choice of heavy/sentry or mix of others for utility. It can also be fit for fleet and push out an astounding 1300-1400 dps like the mega but with poorer tracking.

Rokh fleets are still in use today thanks to their decent damage alongside a truly ridiculous optimal range. The fact is that they can project short range damage over a very long distance. Blasters out to 50KM or so and rails with antimatter to 70 or even 80km.

Many of these ships are meant for fleet combat. You can still solo but you have to scout and use some care. Battleships are not fast, nor agile and with the warp speed changes are even more easily captured. A skilled BS pilot will be very cautious in solo situations. With the new large micro jump drive module you have available to you a new level of maneuverability. Most ships are required to get within energy neutralizer range of you if they want to hold you down.

Bs's are not always the right tool, but for the discerning pilot in K-space they are the most flexible tool in the shed.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-04-01 01:38:34 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
I had a battleship.
It rolled a 6.

i like your signature.

I should buy an Ishtar.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2014-04-01 01:51:18 UTC
You should be getting a lot more firepower out of megathrons. How are you fitting it?
Sanai Nobuseri
Into the Ether
Out of the Blue.
#17 - 2014-04-01 02:18:21 UTC
3 Mags, Full rack T2 Neutrons, Faction Antimatter (Cal Navy) Pulls a little over 800
Switch ammo to Void just barely 900 with a max range of 12km
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#18 - 2014-04-01 03:24:30 UTC
Sanai Nobuseri wrote:
3 Mags, Full rack T2 Neutrons, Faction Antimatter (Cal Navy) Pulls a little over 800
Switch ammo to Void just barely 900 with a max range of 12km


Your stats are wrong, 3 MagStab Neutron Mega puts out 1047dps with CN Antimatter with All V skills (not including drones), 1257 with drones + CN Anti and 1379 with Void + Drones. This is with no implants either and with a standard fit with cap booster/point/web/dual 1600 plate. 116k EHP.
Iyokus Patrouette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-04-01 05:44:44 UTC
Why no mention of smart bombs? . . They look like they'd roll well.

---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-04-01 06:11:49 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
The Battleship - is the king of the battlefield. It gives you the most damage and tank per unit of isk. If you have seen the large sov battles in the west involving CFC vs. NC. you would have seen massive megathron fleets.

Why?

They do great damage, track very well and at the end of the day are easily mass produced with very little effort. The Hyperion is a close range heavy tackle and brawl ship. It does feature a full drone bay...your choice of heavy/sentry or mix of others for utility. It can also be fit for fleet and push out an astounding 1300-1400 dps like the mega but with poorer tracking.

Rokh fleets are still in use today thanks to their decent damage alongside a truly ridiculous optimal range. The fact is that they can project short range damage over a very long distance. Blasters out to 50KM or so and rails with antimatter to 70 or even 80km.

Many of these ships are meant for fleet combat. You can still solo but you have to scout and use some care. Battleships are not fast, nor agile and with the warp speed changes are even more easily captured. A skilled BS pilot will be very cautious in solo situations. With the new large micro jump drive module you have available to you a new level of maneuverability. Most ships are required to get within energy neutralizer range of you if they want to hold you down.

Bs's are not always the right tool, but for the discerning pilot in K-space they are the most flexible tool in the shed.

-1. Most of what you wrote is nonsense.

The reason they're used in fleet fights is lag and the enemy's sig. They have enough buffer, they're easy to lock for RR and they have buffer so you have time to lock and rep them. They can apply all their DPS to caps.

In non fleet fights they're pretty much useless. In solo they're completely useless.

A very telling indication is how often you see a ship in null outside of fleet fights. There are no battleships in null for solo, small or even mid to large gangs. You just don't see them anymore unless they're PvE.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

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