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Intergalactic Summit

 
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I am X but I fly Y

Author
Candi LeMew
Division 13
#81 - 2014-03-30 08:36:56 UTC
All day.

Every day.

Gallente.

🍌

Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...

"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#82 - 2014-03-30 09:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
Miss Shahni, I really have no clue what you were trying to say for most of your post so I'm only going to address the part that made sense to me.

Quote:
What is bothering me, and has been leaking into several threads in the Intergalactic Summit like an oozing sore, is the malcontent of certain individuals that PYRE are doing things that are "not approved of" by the general community. This persecution, which it may surprise people to know is rather ineffectual to the corportaion who is the target of it, is getting tedious to watch.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're bothered by the fact that some individuals are upset with the way other individuals are doing business. If this is true, I have a hard time imagining how to put up with everything else that goes on in this world. This is the Summit, and if people don't want their dirty laundry aired or prefer not to read about others dirty laundry then they can simply not take part and ignore it. When someone does something controversial, there's going to be some who do not approve. It doesn't mean any one side is right or wrong, it's just the way it works when you address topics that people have strong feelings about.

To PYRE, 'not giving a frakk' about anybody's opinion but your kin and countrymen, I caution you. That kind of thinking is dangerous and can often sew a hellish landscape for a future. At what point do you start to care what others think?

A wise man once said, “Wisdom consists of knowing how to distinguish the nature of trouble, and in choosing the lesser evil.” What choices are available and which is the lesser evil? You've traded one human for another and I wonder if this was wisdom. I'm no moral judge, just a man asking questions; some more rhetorical than others. I'm speaking not to prove something, as some seem to think, but rather to find better answers.

Even assuming that the individuals exchanged with PYRE are 100% healthy and free of nano-bots and other controlling mechanisms (including non-invasive brainwashing), there are still some questions, like why? Why are they interested and what are their reasons? More importantly though, why are you doing it? I understand these are your kin and you care for them. Despite many Caldari being tube-born, there is still a great bond between those who grow up and work together and this is true everywhere outside of the State as well. To spare those you love unspeakable torture and servitude to Nation, you will trade them for a stranger's loved ones. Ignore the moral dilemma there for now and consider instead your public image. The picture this story paints your corporation in isn't good, and though you "don't give a frakk", the image of patriotic Caldari is very important because when someone says "Why are we fighting them?" they can simply point at a metaphorical image of a Caldari patriot, exchanging their loved ones with Sansha Nation. Good for business if you want to be a merc the rest of your life, I suppose.

So you spare a few thousand Caldari a life in Nation, in exchange for sending a few thousand others in their place. At least it was the enemy. And while I do believe the phrase "better them than me" is one that explains our species' survival, we tread a dark path when we start to use that as our reasoning to do uncomfortable acts. Sometimes, there is another way.

-Eran
Temba Ronin
#83 - 2014-03-30 10:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Temba Ronin
The ships I fly depend on the mission and the opponent. I have cross trained to fly vessels from all the empires. They are tools of my trade as a pilot.

On the issue of affiliating with the Sansha ..... with friends like the Caldari choose, first the Amarr and now the Sansha I think the Gallente will prove to be the least of their worries in the future. Both those allies are dedicated to absorbing every free human in the Cluster just as soon as they can.

It is truly sad that the fear of "Gallente" has driven the Caldari to these slow long term suicidal paths.

For those in Gallente space who truly want to harm the Caldari .... stand down they have done far greater damage to themselves then we could ever inflict.

Evil is and always will be evil, no amount of flag waving rationalization will change that.

I feel great sorrow that fear has driven the Caldari to such desperate measures, sue for peace and cut you ties with the monstrous hordes you currently operate with .... before you lose your souls to their evil as well.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!

Zenariae
#84 - 2014-03-30 11:08:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Zenariae
.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#85 - 2014-03-30 11:18:15 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
Seems to me that Nation has a lot more to gain from this deal than the State. ... Why would TSF be interested in such a deal? I doubt it's to build their credibility.


Eran Mintor wrote:
Even assuming that the individuals exchanged with PYRE are 100% healthy and free of nano-bots and other controlling mechanisms (including non-invasive brainwashing), there are still some questions, like why? Why are they interested and what are their reasons?


As far as I can tell, you're really concerned with the Why behind all of this. I'm sorry I don't have more spare time to waste reading this amusing thread else I would have answered sooner. It's very simple.

We give Pyre X Caldari PoW's (Taken from State military ops in Placid mostly), Pyre hands over Y Non-Caldari PoW's taken from.....where ever. It really depends. Usually it's prisoners from the war zones but I don't know what all Pyre does when they undock. In this, Y is always a larger value than X. This is agreeable as the Foundations removes more people from Capsuleer hands and the Defence Combine rescues more State Citizens then either group could do alone and without the trade.

What does Pyre get from this? They get State Citizens back in to their hands. Unmolested, untouched except for routine medical procedures we do to assure the health and well being of individuals in our care. Unless you'd like to call Scherezad a Foundations and Nation sympathizer, you can check with her own findings of the individuals that have come from us as to how 'clean' they are.

What does the Foundations get from this? We are able to save more people together than we do on our own. The ethnicity or citizenship of people in our care doesn't matter to us. It matters to some others, so why would we not use the oddities of empire citizens to our advantage?

Given it does not conflict with prior existing arrangements, we are quite willing to make deals with any Capsuleer organization that can demonstrate the ability to make a deal and honor it.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#86 - 2014-03-30 11:46:03 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:

Why would TSF be interested in such a deal? I doubt it's to build their credibility.
-Eran


Math.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#87 - 2014-03-30 12:01:08 UTC
Also, we have no need to defend our credibility. Our record is shown in our actions and our past history; The foundations has never broken a deal that we have made in good faith, and in the few instances where it became clear that we were unable to fulfill the terms of an agreement we have always sought to make reparations. We are also deadly effective at prosecuting the aims of the Foundations, and of Nation when Nation calls on us to act in specific rather than in general.

Do you want your people back? Then deal with us on even keel and with the understanding that we are above all things rational actors. Our motivations are not difficult to understand by anyone with half a brain. Make us an offer that is better for us than not making a deal with you, with your own goals in mind, and we are likely to accept it. Say that we are 'terrorists' or that we are 'the enemy' and you only push us towards the path to Anaxism. After all, if we can't make deals with you that we can expect to be honored, we aren't likely to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Do you want your people back? Then do yourselves a favor and realize that the Foundations or Pyre are not the ones in this thread who are acting like fanatics. We bend.

If you don't bend, then like brittle iron, you will break.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2014-03-30 12:17:35 UTC
"Don't call us terrorists, even though we work for the same terrorist organisation that's currently launching daily invasions of every area of civilized space, or we might act more like terrorists!"

Real compelling argument there.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Naraish Adarn
Alexylva Paradox
#89 - 2014-03-30 12:18:31 UTC
i tend to ever ship is needed for the situation currently i fly most caldari, amarr and gallente sub capitals along with most minmatar frigates. i usually pick ship that's preferred in the situation. most commonly i'm in a Raptor, Manticore or an Absolution.

thou recently i've been adjusting to fly Wolf as well
DeadRow
Blue Canary
Watch This
#90 - 2014-03-30 12:27:55 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
"Don't call us terrorists, even though we work for the same terrorist organisation that's currently launching daily invasions of every area of civilized space, or we might act more like terrorists!"

Real compelling argument there.



We're at war.

Pounding your fists doesn't seem to be working, how about looking for an alternative?

Despite the amount of walls of text thrown into this thread, talking hasn't crossed anybody's mind.

~Hikari
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2014-03-30 12:34:38 UTC
You're at war because you chose to side with a terrorist organisation that's at war with humanity. You could have chosen not to, but you didn't.

In fact there are a lot of things you could have chosen not to do, but you did them anyway. It astounds me how bad at decision-making Sansha supporters tend to be.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

DeadRow
Blue Canary
Watch This
#92 - 2014-03-30 12:39:10 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
You're at war because you chose to side with a terrorist organisation that's at war with humanity. You could have chosen not to, but you didn't.

In fact there are a lot of things you could have chosen not to do, but you did them anyway. It astounds me how bad at decision-making Sansha supporters tend to be.


We're at war because the Empire's couldn't let Kuvakei have his corner of the cluster and tried to curb stomp him.

It. Did. Not. Work.

It astounds me how Big4 supporters love to ignore the facts.

~Hikari
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#93 - 2014-03-30 12:39:22 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
You're at war because you chose to side with a terrorist organisation that's at war with humanity.


That's your point of view. From ours, we're at war because we chose to side with an independent Nation that's trying to save Humanity. My condolences that you cannot see that.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2014-03-30 12:41:28 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

If you don't bend, then like brittle iron, you will break.

I will say this in Nation's defense: they have more than enough experience to be extremely credible authorities on getting broken.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2014-03-30 12:52:11 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
That's your point of view. From ours

Uh huh.

Yeah.

Sure.

OK.

Mmmhmmm.

Right.

Yeah.

Cool.

Sure.

Right.

OK.

Yeah.

Go on.

Fascinating.

No, I'm listening. Why would you think I'm not?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#96 - 2014-03-30 12:55:41 UTC
You genuinely seem upset. Have you had your scheduled mental examination?
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#97 - 2014-03-30 13:04:01 UTC
The debate regarding prisoner exchanges with TSF should be in its own thread to broaden participation and open the discussion. The title of this thread doesn't lend itself so much to this discussion. Perhaps Pro and Anti Sansha can come up with a neutral yet descriptive thread title and continue the debate openly.

SANKOFA

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#98 - 2014-03-30 13:51:03 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
The debate regarding prisoner exchanges with TSF should be in its own thread to broaden participation and open the discussion. The title of this thread doesn't lend itself so much to this discussion. Perhaps Pro and Anti Sansha can come up with a neutral yet descriptive thread title and continue the debate openly.

You're assuming that there's much more to say.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Ollie Rundle
#99 - 2014-03-30 13:55:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ollie Rundle
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Batches of returnees were examined most thoroughly by Scherezad-haani for any trace of infection. What steps were taken in addition to these by the host corporations is unknown to me.

Scherezad is your filter? Interesting, though less than reassuring. Scherezad was compromised by Nation-loyalists some time ago.

She's a very clever scientist, of course. But you've essentially utilised someone who at best sympathises with TS-F and at worst is tacitly influenced and controlled by them as your firewall.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
What I am certain of is that they are heroes who deserve another chance at life.

Well then, I suppose we should all be reassured by your certainty.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ollie Rundle wrote:
With your statement in mind can you confirm then that PYRE's trade of 152 former employees, at least some of whom were Caldari, to a Nation-loyal corporation in October YC115 was the "right way to deal with difficult circumstances"? Nation is still regarded as an enemy by the State and the megacorp that PYRE professes loyalty to, is it not? Has PYRE formally cut its past political and corporate links?
And if you're up to explaining it, what exactly were the "difficult circumstances" which prevented you recommending these former employees to either a Protectorate or State loyal corporation as an alternative?


Criminals often find it hard to find respectable employment after being fired "with cause". The CERB no doubt took this into account, although I was not privy to their deliberations (thankfully - more than 30 straight hours).


Criminals now? Your statement on YC115-10-25 makes no mention of criminal charges being laid, merely that the 152 former employees you traded to TS-F had acted contrary to established corporate ethics and in a manner likely to cause a breach of the peace if left unchecked. Subsequently their employment was, as you said, terminated "with cause". All very routine.

While finding employment at the same level within the meritocracy of Caldari society might well have been shut off to them in the immediate sense, this does not - to my understanding - make them 'criminal'. So the questions posed, most of which you avoided answering, remain.

Is Nation still regarded by the State and KK as an enemy? If so, what are the politico-corporate implications of PYRE choosing to ally themselves with loyalist capsuleer corporations of said enemy? Will PYRE be formally announcing that their past corporate and State loyalties have now been terminated?

I would add one more question directly: Are you still profiting from the trade of Caldari personnel into TS-F's 'care' as you did with your former employees on October 25th last year?

Manwe Todako wrote:
The debate regarding prisoner exchanges with TSF should be in its own thread to broaden participation and open the discussion. The title of this thread doesn't lend itself so much to this discussion. Perhaps Pro and Anti Sansha can come up with a neutral yet descriptive thread title and continue the debate openly.

While this seems like a good idea on the surface, it might also finish with TS-F and PYRE making STON-style updates of POW's exchanged/rescued/liberated/uplifted and, really, the cluster can only take so much STON-style updating.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#100 - 2014-03-30 14:18:56 UTC
Ollie Rundle wrote:
She's a very clever scientist, of course. But you've essentially utilised someone who at best sympathises with TS-F and at worst is tacitly influenced and controlled by them as your firewall.


I've never seen any sign that Scherezad is pro-Nation. What she is, is uniquely sympathetic to those who have had their grey matter messed with.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
What I am certain of is that they are heroes who deserve another chance at life.

Ollie Rundle wrote:
Well then, I suppose we should all be reassured by your certainty.

I'm surprised there's any dissension on this matter.

Ollie Rundle wrote:
Criminals now? Your statement on YC115-10-25 makes no mention of criminal charges being laid, merely that the 152 former employees you traded to TS-F had acted contrary to established corporate ethics and in a manner likely to cause a breach of the peace if left unchecked. Subsequently their employment was, as you said, terminated "with cause". All very routine.

I think you need to look into State law. There really is no hard difference between breaches of corporate law and civil law - these people were tried for offenses by a tribunal that could, equally, have sentenced them to incarceration or a number of other corrective measures. In this case, the conspiracy to commit these anti-social offenses and the nature of the offences themselves rendered the employees irredeemable in the eyes of the CERB and their employment was terminated. Losing your job means losing your citizenship, in the State, and the loss of citizenship plus their conviction for crimes of that nature, rendered these people, likely, part of a permanent criminal underclass. A foreign corporation offered them employment, they accepted and we shipped them to that corporation's homebase.

Those are the questions I'm competent to answer, questions of the nature you are asking are really a matter for corporate leadership, amongst whose august number I am NOT.

Ollie Rundle wrote:
I would add one more question directly: Are you still profiting from the trade of Caldari personnel into TS-F's 'care' as you did with your former employees on October 25th last year?

You are inferring who that batch of disassociated went to. You must understand that once they left our employ we really have little interest in them, legally. What I can say, personally, is that I have never profited from any deal with TS-F - save for having had competent wingman in a couple of patrols.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.