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An Announcement Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#501 - 2014-03-28 19:35:58 UTC
Quote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
I guess If I have a question for CCP.

Where exactly is the line?


This is a good question, when you get killed as a miner, or missioner, will you be able to say "I dont have any more money to get a new ship. Leave me alone or ill get you banned"?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Kaius Fero
#502 - 2014-03-28 19:36:03 UTC
I'm about to have a relationship with a politician and you guys are trolling me :/

Anselmo & The Illegals
Gobtcha
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#503 - 2014-03-28 19:36:57 UTC
Thanks, CCP and others for clarifying and taking action on what you felt was right. As a client/player/customer I am happy to see these actions in place.

My personal opinion on this is: Erotica 1 and Sohkar are both in the wrong. Erotica 1 for continually pressing Sohkars button till he snapped. Sohkar for losing his temper to a great extent and never walking away.

Thanks for reading and fly safe or wreckless,

Gobtcha

https://sites.google.com/site/amessagefromthestars/home
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#504 - 2014-03-28 19:37:05 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Hell, I dont even get why this is NEWS

Go read the 380 page threadzilla for starters.


You dont know the subject enough that you can explain it on your own without posting to another thread for reference?

Im cioming into this new and trying to see whats so important about ONE scam in a game about scamming


It has nothing to do with the scam. It's all about drawing a vague line in the sand against out of game harassment to protect themselves, to ensure an enjoyable gaming environment for the players and to make the current mob put out their torches. If you just want to play the game cheating, scamming and screwing over people, this has zero impact on you. In general CCP doesn't want to touch this crap even with a long pole, so they're telling content creators to make sure to manage their own content before publishing it in a way, that they don''t have to step in later. If the content creator fails to do so, he's placing his account privileges on the line and no amount of rule lawyering will protect you at that point.
Vance Armistice
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#505 - 2014-03-28 19:37:10 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
It's about what was happening after erotica1 & co already had all the mark's ISK, assets and even his API. Once they've got all his stuff, then what happened after that wasn't about being an evil character in game. It was just about being evil.
Then talking to them on TS was evil?

Like I said, I guess I just dont get it
Then get this: once you've got all your target's money and killed all his ships, leave him alone.
So Malcanis, why in your professional opinion should someone running a scam be entirely responsible for stopping? Why in all of this, while the "victim" is fully capable of ending it at any moment does absolutely no responsibility fall to him?


Because...human being
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#506 - 2014-03-28 19:37:15 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


It's about what was happening after erotica1 & co already had all the mark's ISK, assets and even his API. Once they've got all his stuff, then what happened after that wasn't about being an evil character in game. It was just about being evil.


Then talking to them on TS was evil?

Like I said, I guess I just dont get it


Then get this: once you've got all your target's money and killed all his ships, leave him alone.


Where does it say this is the ToS/EULA?

Id like to read this myself, thanks

Extrapolate from the GM response of bumping thread in the crime and punishment boards. That thread makes it pretty clear.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#507 - 2014-03-28 19:37:39 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
It's about what was happening after erotica1 & co already had all the mark's ISK, assets and even his API. Once they've got all his stuff, then what happened after that wasn't about being an evil character in game. It was just about being evil.
Then talking to them on TS was evil?

Like I said, I guess I just dont get it
Then get this: once you've got all your target's money and killed all his ships, leave him alone.
So Malcanis, why in your professional opinion should someone running a scam be entirely responsible for stopping? Why in all of this, while the "victim" is fully capable of ending it at any moment does absolutely no responsibility fall to him?


Also; is this YOUR opinion or is this opinion shared by CCP and updated into the ToS/EULA?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Moja Hinken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#508 - 2014-03-28 19:38:38 UTC
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
Minerbumping.com is saying E1 has been permabanned.


If this is true than it makes me happy CCP would punish someone for this kind of psychological abuse. It wasn't about scamming, it was about the unneeded abuse that took place after. It is obvious where the line has been drawn.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#509 - 2014-03-28 19:39:59 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
I dont get why scamming someone stupid enough to give you all their stuff is so bad -.-

You have to be stupid enough to give them all your stuff. Thats rule number one breaking right there. Move on lol


CCP have no problem whatsover with scamming. They were extremely clear on this when we discussed the matter with them.

Suicide ganking, piracy, awoxing, scamming. spying, propaganda, lying, 0.01ing and so on are all perfectly fine. I personally went to considerable trouble to make sure that my deep concerns on those activities were addressed, and CCP's answers were 100% on the money as far as I'm concerned.

This. Is. Not. About. The. Scam.

It's about what was happening after erotica1 & co already had all the mark's ISK, assets and even his API. Once they've got all his stuff, then what happened after that wasn't about being an evil character in game. It was just about being evil.

Malcanis, in many cases I'm right there with you. I've seen people take things to incredibly cruel levels before they are done.

But I have to be honest, asking someone to read text and sing the gummy bear song doesn't fall into that category in my book... and it apparently doesn't fall into that category in Sohkars book either.

Still, I can appreciate the position that CCP and the CSM was in... and respect the decisions made. It's just unfortunate that it makes it look like caving in to the mob mentality (which I personally don't believe it was).


Mynxee said it best, and tbh, this was the argument that persuaded me. Like yourself, I was very concerned about where the line should be drawn so as to prevent attempts to use the "ugh" as a tool for metagaming:

"I guess you have to draw the line at the point where the victim starts to lose emotional control, and that's a different place for everyone and every situation. And there has to be a willingness to recognize that line and honor it with humane behavior. I don't get a sense from Erotica's recording that there was any intent in ever doing that. Not one bit."

to expand on what mynxee said there is that the person with the position of power in the situation is the one with the responsibility to ensure that it doesn't cross the line. Erotica1 signally failed to do this. She very precisely articulated the philosophical issue with what he did (as opposed to a mere emotional reaction), and expressed clearly what he did wrong. Like yourself, I wanted a good definition of "the line" before being comfortable with CCP proceeding. There it is.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#510 - 2014-03-28 19:40:17 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I'm listening to the recording myself and this is VERY analogous to a few of my own experiences of gank victims I've invited onto coms and tried to calmly explain why they lost their ship. At what point in that person's rage is it me harassing them?

I think it is clear from the very fact that you raise the question that (a) your intent -- to explain, not to abuse -- would be obvious and also (b) you would have the presence of mind to recognize that you weren't helping and end the conversation.

As anyone who has started a petition knows, EVE GM and Community Reps are battle-scarred veterans with hearts of coal, their bodies increasingly deformed by the horrific demands of their jobs (CCP Guard, for example, was over 2 meters tall when he started at CCP). You would have to work hard to convince them you are a blackguard worthy of banishment to the outer darkness (ie: World of Warcraft or Hello Kitty Online).

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Trebor, is freedom of speech inviolate or are you one of those that believes in 'hate speech'?

I do not agree with the concept of absolute free speech (for example, the right to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre, or incite a crowd to violence); rather, any limitations on speech should ideally be limited to those intended to prevent harm and encourage rational discourse. I recognize this is a horrible grey area, and that well-intentioned people can disagree on where to draw the lines.

Regardless, you -- as a staunch defender of absolute free speech, no matter how much it hurts -- will have absolutely no problem with me making a statement of my position on the harrassment opinion.

Quote:
At it's core Sohkar willingly took part in a bonus round on Teamspeak (and hung in there) in the context of EvE meta gameplay, in pursuit of moar EvE assets (or their recovery). That is IN GAME Trebor.

I beg to differ. IMHO, Sohkar was psychologically trapped -- read up on concepts like sunk costs -- and his tormentors took advantage of this.

EVE is CCP's game, and they set the rules of what is and is not acceptable in-game and in its penumbra based on their business interests -- as a believer in absolute free speech, I am sure you also believe in pure laissez-faire capitalism. If you don't like it, you are free to stop doing business with them. But you probably won't -- your own sunk costs will keep you playing, despite the agonizing existential despair you must now be feeling.

Feel free to prove me wrong by quitting -- in which case, can I have your stuff? Twisted




That's it. I'm an infinite monkey compared to this wit and prose. Where did I get sick and lose that ability to zing people on their own points like that?

That's one of the best posts I ever saw. My faith in CSM is restored somewhat (though I still take a dim view of the form of collectivism that emplaces them).


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kaius Fero
#511 - 2014-03-28 19:40:52 UTC
You know what? Fuk u all/ Malkan is mine!! Or is Malkanis.... ?

Anselmo & The Illegals
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#512 - 2014-03-28 19:41:13 UTC
Vilar Diin wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
As I predicted, the weaseling segment of the community wants a clearly defined line (to circumvent) and CCP is showing pure genius in not providing one and stating intent to judge each case individually.
(Thereby causing much grief to those who want to cause much grief)

That segment of the community cannot claim that CCP is not in touch with them. Heck they should be saying "ah well played, masters." and move on.
You won't be so happy with those unclear lines when you give an offhand remark and get banned because the person you said it to has a sad.
Oh stop, these histrionics are unbecoming hardcore gent such as yourself.

CCP made it clear in previous statements in this thread that that would never happen. The CSM did also. You are just being willfully ignorant.

Go forth and fleece some sheep they are waiting for you, and all of their furious bleating notwithstanding, CCP will look on in pride at you nefarious deeds.

However, please refrain from acts out of game that are outright creepy and disturbing, that mayo or mayonoto go good for you...
How can you possibly claim this can't happen? There's no clearly defined rules stating what is and isn't harassment, so it's quite possible someone will say something that can be considered harassment, especially with language and culture barriers.

Also, you've got the other issue. If I got a friend right now to record a voice communication between myself and him with him playing the part of you harassing me and submitted it to CCP as evidence that you harassed me, how would they verify it? How would you be able to disprove it?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#513 - 2014-03-28 19:41:21 UTC
Moja Hinken wrote:
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
Minerbumping.com is saying E1 has been permabanned.


If this is true than it makes me happy CCP would punish someone for this kind of psychological abuse. It wasn't about scamming, it was about the unneeded abuse that took place after. It is obvious where the line has been drawn.


So the next time someone like Mittens tries to get someone to commit suicide (drunk or otherwise) a ban will be forthcoming?

Why was THIS such a HUGE problem that deserves an instant permaban and that wasnt?

Erotica1 should just say he was drunk. Thats how the last guy got away with it.

Hey tell him to say he was drunk.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#514 - 2014-03-28 19:41:57 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
It's about what was happening after erotica1 & co already had all the mark's ISK, assets and even his API. Once they've got all his stuff, then what happened after that wasn't about being an evil character in game. It was just about being evil.
Then talking to them on TS was evil?

Like I said, I guess I just dont get it
Then get this: once you've got all your target's money and killed all his ships, leave him alone.
So Malcanis, why in your professional opinion should someone running a scam be entirely responsible for stopping? Why in all of this, while the "victim" is fully capable of ending it at any moment does absolutely no responsibility fall to him?


Also; is this YOUR opinion or is this opinion shared by CCP and updated into the ToS/EULA?


The CSM has a unanimous position on this. CCP have fully satisfied us that they are acting according to the existing TOS & EULA and that erotica1 was fairly treated according to the existing rules.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Asia Leigh
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#515 - 2014-03-28 19:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Asia Leigh
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
Minerbumping.com is saying E1 has been permabanned.


Cool, We can expect Erotica 2 to show up in about 5 minutes and confirm this right?

Do you guys really think he cares about an account he just podded to oblivion and gave everything away on... Please >.>

My only concern here is the angry kid is still handing out pitch forks >.>
Apply the damn rules equally >.>
Josef Djugashvilis
#516 - 2014-03-28 19:42:27 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
CCP is very skilled at typing a lot of words to say nothing at all.


As are many, many posters in the forums.

This is not a signature.
Khan D'Amarr
Doomheim
#517 - 2014-03-28 19:43:12 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
It's about what was happening after erotica1 & co already had all the mark's ISK, assets and even his API. Once they've got all his stuff, then what happened after that wasn't about being an evil character in game. It was just about being evil.
Then talking to them on TS was evil?

Like I said, I guess I just dont get it
Then get this: once you've got all your target's money and killed all his ships, leave him alone.
So Malcanis, why in your professional opinion should someone running a scam be entirely responsible for stopping? Why in all of this, while the "victim" is fully capable of ending it at any moment does absolutely no responsibility fall to him?


Also; is this YOUR opinion or is this opinion shared by CCP and updated into the ToS/EULA?


Looks like they are saying that actions have consequences and if it feels like the scam feels too good then it probably is...see what I did there?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#518 - 2014-03-28 19:43:47 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


"I guess you have to draw the line at the point where the victim starts to lose emotional control, and that's a different place for everyone and every situation. And there has to be a willingness to recognize that line and honor it with humane behavior. I don't get a sense from Erotica's recording that there was any intent in ever doing that. Not one bit."



So Mittani should have been banned in this environment is what youre saying.

Also; any time someone ganks a miner and the miner rages, they ganker will be banned? That meets that emotional requirement that this seems to need. That will change this game HUGELY if true

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Salvos Rhoska
#519 - 2014-03-28 19:45:31 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Yes, I have. And it basically says "don't make people sad out of game".


VS:

"While the content of online interactions between players cannot realistically be gated within our game worlds, CCP strongly disapproves of clear and extraordinary levels of real life harassment against our players in the outside world."

You may have read it, but you have not comprehended it.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Kaius Fero
#520 - 2014-03-28 19:45:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
...
The CSM has a unanimous position on this. CCP have fully satisfied us that they are acting according to the existing TOS & EULA and that erotica1 was fairly treated according to the existing rules.

Satisfy.. your so erotic! Wanna meet me in a private glory hole channel? Politicians turns me on :|

Anselmo & The Illegals