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An Announcement Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#421 - 2014-03-28 18:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I'm listening to the recording myself and this is VERY analogous to a few of my own experiences of gank victims I've invited onto coms and tried to calmly explain why they lost their ship. At what point in that person's rage is it me harassing them?

I think it is clear from the very fact that you raise the question that (a) your intent -- to explain, not to abuse -- would be obvious and also (b) you would have the presence of mind to recognize that you weren't helping and end the conversation.

As anyone who has started a petition knows, EVE GM and Community Reps are battle-scarred veterans with hearts of coal, their bodies increasingly deformed by the horrific demands of their jobs (CCP Guard, for example, was over 2 meters tall when he started at CCP). You would have to work hard to convince them you are a blackguard worthy of banishment to the outer darkness (ie: World of Warcraft or Hello Kitty Online).

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Trebor, is freedom of speech inviolate or are you one of those that believes in 'hate speech'?

I do not agree with the concept of absolute free speech (for example, the right to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre, or incite a crowd to violence); rather, any limitations on speech should ideally be limited to those intended to prevent harm and encourage rational discourse. I recognize this is a horrible grey area, and that well-intentioned people can disagree on where to draw the lines.

Regardless, you -- as a staunch defender of absolute free speech, no matter how much it hurts -- will have absolutely no problem with me making a statement of my position on the harrassment opinion.

Quote:
At it's core Sohkar willingly took part in a bonus round on Teamspeak (and hung in there) in the context of EvE meta gameplay, in pursuit of moar EvE assets (or their recovery). That is IN GAME Trebor.

I beg to differ. IMHO, Sohkar was psychologically trapped -- read up on concepts like sunk costs -- and his tormentors took advantage of this.

EVE is CCP's game, and they set the rules of what is and is not acceptable in-game and in its penumbra based on their business interests -- as a believer in absolute free speech, I am sure you also believe in pure laissez-faire capitalism. If you don't like it, you are free to stop doing business with them. But you probably won't -- your own sunk costs will keep you playing, despite the agonizing existential despair you must now be feeling.

Feel free to prove me wrong by quitting -- in which case, can I have your stuff? Twisted

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#422 - 2014-03-28 18:59:05 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Please feel free to discuss this statement in this thread, however please also be aware of the forum rules, and our rules on discussion of warnings and bans.

Above all, lets keep it civil and constructive.

Thanks again.



My issue is that we already knew everything you posted. Obviously, if its extreme enough, CCP will take action against real life harrassment extended from Eve. Nobody disputes that.

The drama is over the vagueness of real life harrassment. The ideal solution would be to give specific information over when the line is crossed, that way future drama like this can be quickly closed down by simply citing that information.

As it stands, even if the bonus room is banned, all that really shows is that if you generate enough drama over something, it will be banned.

The problem with that is two fold.

As Mr. Epeen pointed out, if you take away all discretion in these situation someone will usually find a loophole in the hard and fast rule that they can exploit.

You can't really strictly define some things to begin with. Even in this situation we have people defining "torture" as being politely asked to sing the gummy bear song... and claiming Sohkar was harassed even though he has bluntly made a public statement saying that was blatantly untrue.

CCP needs to be able to use their own discretion on where to draw the line.

We predicted from the start that E1 would get at least a temp ban, and possibly Sohkar would as well. The next time something similar to this comes up the response could easily be completely different depending on the circumstances.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Moja Hinken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#423 - 2014-03-28 18:59:55 UTC
Kaius Fero wrote:
voetius wrote:
Bing Bangboom wrote:
Erotica 1 reports that he cannot log into his account and believes himself to have been banned. He says he has had no communication with CCP explaining if its temporary or permanent. He also says

"I do regret that CCP did not provide me one iota of guidance as I repeatedly requested in forums regarding bonus rounds and the like. I have been handed a rather long rope (the sandbox) to metaphorically hang myself with. "

So, it may be that everyone is now safe from having someone talk them into giving them their Eve stuff and then making fun of them when they do it. Eve is saved.

BBB


The problem with these sort of issues is that people will spin them whatever way suits their prejudices as seen in the recent threadnaught.

In the case of the quote above, if CCP had stepped in and laid down the law then there could quite well have been more outrage for "interfering in the sandbox, blah blah".

It's a no-win situation in many ways.

Yeah right.. CCP banned Mittani for a month, then burn Jita started. Are you serious.. these bans are only for the press. We are free to fuk up anybody we want.. only rule is to be outside of game ;) We are safe now :)


Hell yeah!! No limits we are free to be the scumbags we were born to be. Any ideas on how I should set up my psychological abuse "scam"? I was just going to copy erotica 1's set up since that works out so well in finding the weak ones with problems and then manipulating them for your enjoyment but that wouldn't be very original.
Vilar Diin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#424 - 2014-03-28 19:00:12 UTC
"We need our Evil Emperors (TheMittani), our Tywin Lannister (Baltec1) and the other assorted scoundrels out there, we even need the phosphorescent green mold that accumulates under many space urinals (The New Order).

What we don't need is a Hannibal Lector mind humping his prey before eating their liver with a nice Chianti, it's not good press, it's not good for player retention and it is not good for the community.

That recording is truly awful and if it evokes such a primal response Eve players (arguably a harder bunch than average) imagine it in the hands of a politician that wants to add restrictions to gaming, mother's being asked for their cc# so a new guy can make an account etc.etc.

Our Hannibal is obviously extremely intelligent and he can change his act if he chooses to, so banning, not the best option in my opinion. He did a disgusting thing, but many things I see in this game, particularly in this thread, which seems to have attracted the worst of the worst in this game, sicken me. However, it's not my game to say what is acceptable; CCP and the community will have to decide." -Drone16

Have to agree here. I would like to think that the person "roleplaying" a truly reprehensible individual in game is not some sort of "spread the lotion on itself..." kind of guy in real life.

After all, the game is Rated:Teen, not 45 with peanut butter issues

I like the stance CCP took, keep the douchebaggery, but let everyone know there are limits that they will determine on a case by case.
Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#425 - 2014-03-28 19:00:55 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


you mean, the activity that had been going on for months, and months, and months that nobody cared about didn't bring attention until some one made a sensationalised article about it on a well trafficked blog?

i am sincerely shocked.


Well since Erotica 1 has been dragging CCP's name through the mud for almost a year with Bonus Rounds, maybe some of our forum participants can name some "victims" other than Sohkar?

You know since the whole thing is like a really big deal and all, and not just this one incident.

Sure: check out https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=274543

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#426 - 2014-03-28 19:01:14 UTC
I thought the point of this game is that there are no real rules.

That its all grey area?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Helena Russell Makanen
DRRUSSEL
#427 - 2014-03-28 19:02:18 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
Bing Bangboom wrote:
Erotica 1 reports that he cannot log into his account and believes himself to have been banned. He says he has had no communication with CCP explaining if its temporary or permanent. He also says

"I do regret that CCP did not provide me one iota of guidance as I repeatedly requested in forums regarding bonus rounds and the like. I have been handed a rather long rope (the sandbox) to metaphorically hang myself with. "

So, it may be that everyone is now safe from having someone talk them into giving them their Eve stuff and then making fun of them when they do it. Eve is saved.

BBB


You forgot that it's pretty much guaranteed CCP saw the Bonus Room article on Miner Bumping ages ago.


Yet another 'Kristallllll ASSumption' with no basis in reality. Kind of sad you feel the need to do that so often.

"If a miner needs to go to the bathroom, for instance, I ask that they dock up first, or at the very least ask the Supreme Protector for permission to go."  -  James 315 - aka - the miner bumper

ChickenPox
0x1
#428 - 2014-03-28 19:02:44 UTC
Moja Hinken wrote:

Players like me and the large majority who have posted recently are very glad this was brought to our attention. I had no idea this kind of psychological abuse was going on.


Psychological abuse? The guy could have disconnected at any time. His own greed kept him going.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#429 - 2014-03-28 19:02:59 UTC
Vilar Diin wrote:
"We need our Evil Emperors (TheMittani), our Tywin Lannister (Baltec1) and the other assorted scoundrels out there, we even need the phosphorescent green mold that accumulates under many space urinals (The New Order).

What we don't need is a Hannibal Lector mind humping his prey before eating their liver with a nice Chianti, it's not good press, it's not good for player retention and it is not good for the community.

That recording is truly awful and if it evokes such a primal response Eve players (arguably a harder bunch than average) imagine it in the hands of a politician that wants to add restrictions to gaming, mother's being asked for their cc# so a new guy can make an account etc.etc.

Our Hannibal is obviously extremely intelligent and he can change his act if he chooses to, so banning, not the best option in my opinion. He did a disgusting thing, but many things I see in this game, particularly in this thread, which seems to have attracted the worst of the worst in this game, sicken me. However, it's not my game to say what is acceptable; CCP and the community will have to decide." -Drone16

Have to agree here. I would like to think that the person "roleplaying" a truly reprehensible individual in game is not some sort of "spread the lotion on itself..." kind of guy in real life.

After all, the game is Rated:Teen, not 45 with peanut butter issues

I like the stance CCP took, keep the douchebaggery, but let everyone know there are limits that they will determine on a case by case.


They did? I read the OP and it looks more like they said "business as usual". What changed in the ToS/EULA because of this?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Salvos Rhoska
#430 - 2014-03-28 19:03:15 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
.

Have you actually read the OP?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#431 - 2014-03-28 19:03:39 UTC
As I predicted, the weaseling segment of the community wants a clearly defined line (to circumvent) and CCP is showing pure genius in not providing one and stating intent to judge each case individually.
(Thereby causing much grief to those who want to cause much grief)

That segment of the community cannot claim that CCP is not in touch with them. Heck they should be saying "ah well played, masters." and move on.






Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Salvos Rhoska
#432 - 2014-03-28 19:05:25 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Hell, I dont even get why this is NEWS

Go read the 380 page threadzilla for starters.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#433 - 2014-03-28 19:05:56 UTC
So E1 may or may not have been temp or perma banned over a harassment complaint that may or may not have even been filed by a player who also may or may not have been temp or perma banned for making threats, and CCP just restates their same position they've always had.

I'm glad this has been cleared up.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#434 - 2014-03-28 19:05:58 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I'm listening to the recording myself and this is VERY analogous to a few of my own experiences of gank victims I've invited onto coms and tried to calmly explain why they lost their ship. At what point in that person's rage is it me harassing them?

I think it is clear from the very fact that you raise the question that (a) your intent -- to explain, not to abuse -- would be obvious and also (b) you would have the presence of mind to recognize that you weren't helping and end the conversation.

As anyone who has started a petition knows, EVE GM and Community Reps are battle-scarred veterans with hearts of coal, their bodies increasingly deformed by the horrific demands of their jobs (CCP Guard, for example, was over 2 meters tall when he started at CCP). You would have to work hard to convince them you are a blackguard worthy of banishment to the outer darkness (ie: World of Warcraft or Hello Kitty Online).

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Trebor, is freedom of speech inviolate or are you one of those that believes in 'hate speech'?

I do not agree with the concept of absolute free speech (for example, the right to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre, or incite a crowd to violence); rather, any limitations on speech should ideally be limited to those intended to prevent harm and encourage rational discourse. I recognize this is a horrible grey area, and that well-intentioned people can disagree on where to draw the lines.

Regardless, you -- as a staunch defender of absolute free speech, no matter how much it hurts -- will have absolutely no problem with me making a statement of my position on the harrassment opinion.

Quote:
At it's core Sohkar willingly took part in a bonus round on Teamspeak (and hung in there) in the context of EvE meta gameplay, in pursuit of moar EvE assets (or their recovery). That is IN GAME Trebor.

I beg to differ. IMHO, Sohkar was psychologically trapped -- read up on concepts like sunk costs -- and his tormentors took advantage of this.

EVE is CCP's game, and they set the rules of what is and is not acceptable in-game and in its penumbra based on their business interests -- as a believer in absolute free speech, I am sure you also believe in pure laissez-faire capitalism. If you don't like it, you are free to stop doing business with them. But you probably won't -- your own sunk costs will keep you playing, despite the agonizing existential despair you must now be feeling.

Feel free to prove me wrong by quitting -- in which case, can I have your stuff? Twisted

Jesus buddy, how long do you plan on protecting Sohkar to death?
He's already told you that you're waaaay off base, and have done far more harm that good.

Time to step away.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#435 - 2014-03-28 19:06:55 UTC
Can someone please explain to me why this is new in this game?

Its EVE, CCP, masters of the HTFU. Why is this suddenly more bad than anything else that ever happens in this game?

I literally stumbled upon this like 5 am this morning.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Helena Russell Makanen
DRRUSSEL
#436 - 2014-03-28 19:07:13 UTC
Vilar Diin wrote:
"we even need the phosphorescent green mold that accumulates under many space urinals (The New Order).




You almost made me shoot coffee out my nose - too funny! Big smile

"If a miner needs to go to the bathroom, for instance, I ask that they dock up first, or at the very least ask the Supreme Protector for permission to go."  -  James 315 - aka - the miner bumper

Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#437 - 2014-03-28 19:07:54 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:


Above all, lets keep it civil and constructive.



Thats sarcastic, right?

OK, literally just started reading about this last night, what heppened? As far as Ive read, some stupid ass got scammed, then got scammed more...

Um its EVE.

I dont understand the issue


http://podborn.com/community/psychopaths-guide-to-the-bonus-room

It has links to most of the relevant info as well as presents a LOT of info not covered elsewhere.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#438 - 2014-03-28 19:08:18 UTC
Kaius Fero wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?16342-The-Bonus-Round&p=1053833&viewfull=1#post1053833

Did anyone told you that you need a big Dislike button? A really BIG one!


The subject has come up once or twice.

Still, as my dad always used to say: if you're making stupid people angry, you're probably doing something right.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#439 - 2014-03-28 19:08:34 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Hell, I dont even get why this is NEWS

Go read the 380 page threadzilla for starters.


You dont know the subject enough that you can explain it on your own without posting to another thread for reference?

Im cioming into this new and trying to see whats so important about ONE scam in a game about scamming

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Vilar Diin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#440 - 2014-03-28 19:09:26 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Vilar Diin wrote:
"We need our Evil Emperors (TheMittani), our Tywin Lannister (Baltec1) and the other assorted scoundrels out there, we even need the phosphorescent green mold that accumulates under many space urinals (The New Order).

What we don't need is a Hannibal Lector mind humping his prey before eating their liver with a nice Chianti, it's not good press, it's not good for player retention and it is not good for the community.

That recording is truly awful and if it evokes such a primal response Eve players (arguably a harder bunch than average) imagine it in the hands of a politician that wants to add restrictions to gaming, mother's being asked for their cc# so a new guy can make an account etc.etc.

Our Hannibal is obviously extremely intelligent and he can change his act if he chooses to, so banning, not the best option in my opinion. He did a disgusting thing, but many things I see in this game, particularly in this thread, which seems to have attracted the worst of the worst in this game, sicken me. However, it's not my game to say what is acceptable; CCP and the community will have to decide." -Drone16

Have to agree here. I would like to think that the person "roleplaying" a truly reprehensible individual in game is not some sort of "spread the lotion on itself..." kind of guy in real life.

After all, the game is Rated:Teen, not 45 with peanut butter issues

I like the stance CCP took, keep the douchebaggery, but let everyone know there are limits that they will determine on a case by case.


They did? I read the OP and it looks more like they said "business as usual". What changed in the ToS/EULA because of this?


Never fear they have top men on it...