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So why PvP again?
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Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#1 - 2014-03-28 00:42:56 UTC
Inspired by this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=331782 (summary - with the new discovery scanner, ganking site runners became harder, and the proposed change will instead allow potential attackers to remain undetected until they launch their attack).

The responses to that thread basically boil down to 2 camps:
- Yay, more PvP
- you should be able to run sites in WHs without needing a massive PvP response fleet, IF you are careful

Personally, I have more sympathy with the latter view rather than the former, for the following reasons:
- Ganks are fun, but I don't consider them real PvP
- To have ships in space (PvP or PvE), you need income, and to have income you need the ability to escape ganks (or at least all but the best executed ganks). Otherwise, you're basically using other players as a "rocks fall, everyone dies" RNG. Arbitrary death has never been a good PvE mechanic (as opposed to dying because you messed up, which is).
- I'd rather small and big groups be able to make it in WHs, rather than just big groups (cf "big blue donut" in Null).

However, what struck me is that the connection between PvP and income harvesting is indirect. Groups income harvest to get income to buy / make stuff to PvP, which they do for either fights or killmails, depending on the pilots. But, historically, most "PvP" is about income, either looting or land. There is a tiny bit of "PvP for direct income" in the game, via faction war and via incursions (if you can call contests PvP), and indirectly via Sov warfare, but I suicide ganking in Jita is the only place I can think of where PvP* happens directly to acquire income (and suicide ganks are a strange case anyway).

To make "PvP for loot income" (call it "raiding") work, 2 things need to be true:
- there has to be significant income to be made
- looting has to be feasible

The first is the fundamental issue. To farm other players, you need "carebears" to be farmed. To get the carebears, you need the promise of riches. Further, the riches available must be such that losses are a cost of doing business. The classic examples of this include barbarians who raided farms or highwaymen in the gold rush eras. The difference with barbarians raiding farms is that the carebears are not "stuck" - it's not suicide to give up and walk away, or even unsubscribe. Which means that the gold rush / highwayman model is more useful. And the point of this is that it actually needs to be possible to make good money being a carebear in dangerous space, if you're careful / lucky. Carebears are the lifeblood, not a blight.

But while the first requirement is fundamental, the second is harder to manage. To PvP for loot requires that one can meaningfully loot. I'm not sure the mechanics exist in WH (or other) space to allow this to a sufficient extent that a group can thrive from PvP.

Finally, theres a difference between conquering and raiding. Most PvP for income is done by means of conquest, bringing overwhelming force (to the battle / system / station / whatever). What sort of mechanics would allow for hit and run raids - zooming in, grabbing some choice loot, and leaving before retaliation could be mustered? This last is interesting because it makes smaller groups viable - rather than figuring whether you have overwhelming force, you figure whether you can acquire your objective before overwhelming force can be brought to bear against you. This is a much more interesting scenario, both for attacker and defender.


That's my thoughts on where I'd like to see PvP / PvE interaction go, especially in WHs. What have I missed?

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?
Dori Tos
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-03-28 20:32:32 UTC
A lot of people in WH space actually pray fro people to gank them while they run sites...Their ships are almost always pvp fitted.

As for earning an income out of pvp,other than the phat loot of those pimped out ships in WH ,you can simply wait till the Noctis have finished salvaging and you pop it...That's not much fun but, if ISK is what you want..

I'm delicious.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#3 - 2014-03-28 20:45:18 UTC
Debir Achen wrote:
Inspired by this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=331782 (summary - with the new discovery scanner, ganking site runners became harder, and the proposed change will instead allow potential attackers to remain undetected until they launch their attack).

The responses to that thread basically boil down to 2 camps:
- Yay, more PvP
- you should be able to run sites in WHs without needing a massive PvP response fleet, IF you are careful

Personally, I have more sympathy with the latter view rather than the former, for the following reasons:
- Ganks are fun, but I don't consider them real PvP
- To have ships in space (PvP or PvE), you need income, and to have income you need the ability to escape ganks (or at least all but the best executed ganks). Otherwise, you're basically using other players as a "rocks fall, everyone dies" RNG. Arbitrary death has never been a good PvE mechanic (as opposed to dying because you messed up, which is).
- I'd rather small and big groups be able to make it in WHs, rather than just big groups (cf "big blue donut" in Null).

However, what struck me is that the connection between PvP and income harvesting is indirect. Groups income harvest to get income to buy / make stuff to PvP, which they do for either fights or killmails, depending on the pilots. But, historically, most "PvP" is about income, either looting or land. There is a tiny bit of "PvP for direct income" in the game, via faction war and via incursions (if you can call contests PvP), and indirectly via Sov warfare, but I suicide ganking in Jita is the only place I can think of where PvP* happens directly to acquire income (and suicide ganks are a strange case anyway).

To make "PvP for loot income" (call it "raiding") work, 2 things need to be true:
- there has to be significant income to be made
- looting has to be feasible

The first is the fundamental issue. To farm other players, you need "carebears" to be farmed. To get the carebears, you need the promise of riches. Further, the riches available must be such that losses are a cost of doing business. The classic examples of this include barbarians who raided farms or highwaymen in the gold rush eras. The difference with barbarians raiding farms is that the carebears are not "stuck" - it's not suicide to give up and walk away, or even unsubscribe. Which means that the gold rush / highwayman model is more useful. And the point of this is that it actually needs to be possible to make good money being a carebear in dangerous space, if you're careful / lucky. Carebears are the lifeblood, not a blight.

But while the first requirement is fundamental, the second is harder to manage. To PvP for loot requires that one can meaningfully loot. I'm not sure the mechanics exist in WH (or other) space to allow this to a sufficient extent that a group can thrive from PvP.

Finally, theres a difference between conquering and raiding. Most PvP for income is done by means of conquest, bringing overwhelming force (to the battle / system / station / whatever). What sort of mechanics would allow for hit and run raids - zooming in, grabbing some choice loot, and leaving before retaliation could be mustered? This last is interesting because it makes smaller groups viable - rather than figuring whether you have overwhelming force, you figure whether you can acquire your objective before overwhelming force can be brought to bear against you. This is a much more interesting scenario, both for attacker and defender.


That's my thoughts on where I'd like to see PvP / PvE interaction go, especially in WHs. What have I missed?


you've missed the fact that your post could easily have been added to the thread you referenced, as per the right and proper way to respond on these boards.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-03-28 21:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gigan Amilupar
This is actually a pretty good post. It would be better if OP offered some kind of solution or had a proposal to make, but it's a good jumping off point at least.

I think that CCP understands the need for meaningful small scale combat. Some mobile structures (such as siphons and the much maligned ESS) were implemented as a way to bring small groups into combat, and hopefully allow those who take the offensive to make money while doing it. But it's just a start, really. I myself think the best way to approach a world of "PvP = Risky Profit" is to implement better services around combat and let the players do the rest. For instance, a concept that has come up in the past is mercenary contracts. Allow a contract to be placed on a corp or alliance that requires the ones who take it to inflict a certain amount of isk damage or loss, or even to make them lose sov in a certain system as the requisite for payout. It would, at the very least, be a step up from paid wardecs which may not accomplish all that much other then a disruption of routine.

That said, I think in a lot of ways the risk : reward scale is skewed. High sec incursions are an excellent example of this. There simply isn't enough motivation to make money outside of high sec....I mean really, how often do low sec incursions get done? Faction Warfare is a good start for moving people out of high sec, but players always find a way to abuse mechanics for max profit and min risk. Just look at all the complaints about cloaky-stabbed farmers. And the risk in null sec is considered a deal breaker for most people who are feeling entrepreneurial. Few people mine except in dead end heavily bubbled systems in deep blue for fear of hotdrops. It's so bad that there is an entire stigma about afk-cloaked campers. Rampant force projection makes it impossible for small groups to reasonably accomplish anything, and the lack of industry motivators in null sec makes local production a pipe dream apart from capital/super capital production...just import from jita. For what it's worth CCP's mineral compression rebalance seems to be a shot at the last one.

In any event, I think it's far too simple to just say that PvP and high risk situations need to be more profitable. There needs to be a serious reevaluation of why they presently aren't worth many players time (as far as generating money goes), and all the factors that affect it from force projection to industry to sov must be considered. Once that's done and ironed out a bit then we can consider "raiding" mechanisms that hopefully won't succumb to Malcanis's Law.

Wormholes are themselves a somewhat different discussion due to the mechanics that surround them. I do imagine though that something like my aforementioned "mercenary contracts" concept could help motivate groups to evict others, but that's conjecture.

That's my brain dump at least, anyone who wants to pick at it is welcome to. I like healthy discussion. Curious to see if this thread goes anywhere.