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Sustain max shield tank for how long?

Author
Slan Audeles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-03-27 10:52:57 UTC
I have read that you should have "at least" 1000 tank+gank for level 4 missions, but I haven't heard much about how long that tank needs to be able to be run. I read how people have 700+ dps tank on their BS but using EFT it is very hard to understand how such a tank can be sustained for long. If you want a lot of gank you need to use modules that largely support your dps (rigor for example), so fitting tons of capacitor recharge in riggings, lows and mids just gimps you badly. So I see lots of fits which use a deadspace x-large booster + amp + hardeners which really suck the cap out of your ship.

So my question is for how long I need to sustain that "max tank" to manage burst damage. is this just to handle initial aggro until you can get range or thin the enemy down? Or is this for an accidental pull of a whole room or to buy enough time enough to escape if you mess up or are webbed/scrammed? Also, if you use a AB to kite, maneuver and keep range can you expect less to need less max tank or need it for less time? I personally hate cap boosters both for the space they take up and the limited nature of their charges, so if all I will ever need is a 2-3 minute of max active tank then I could drop it. Oh and fitting a 300 dps tank that runs forever isn't very hard but I guess that doesn't solve the problem of overwhelming incoming dps like a bursty 700 dps tank does.

Anyway, I am content with running 3's for a bit longer and getting my skills up some more but I want to understand this trade off a bit more.

Thanks!
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#2 - 2014-03-27 11:17:53 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
While 2-3 minutes is possible, depending a bit on your dps on the targets, the amount of overall tank(like 700 dps means you only need to puls the booster every now and then in a high dps ship) and how to spawn waves or position yourself you probably will need a bit more early on.

I would aim for something like 4-7 minutes for a 500 dps tank in the beginning and drop a bit of tank with better skills and when you know the L4 missions inside out. AB doesn't help much negating damage on a BS and it also reducing the dps you can put on the targets in turret ships, since you create a higher transversal speed, reducing your hit chance and dps with it, what requires you to tank longer. I for myself are also not a big fan of a cap booster, since the charges take away a lot of room that you need sometimes to scoop the mission loot and have to be refilled every few minutes, while many ships can be flow without capacitor rigs and cap mods or just need one more cap mod(worst case example using a mwd fitted laser BS).

Btw most people over tank her BS and make them cap stable because they are semi afk and don't want to pay to much attention, not because so much tank is really needed if you focus on your game.

Edit: I normally run a 200-300 dps armor tank on my BS for L4s with 2-5 minutes of cap for it, depending a bit on the hulls. I think in the Vargur I had a 400 dps tank with about 4 minutes of cap and a 350 dps tank on my torp golem(unsure I think it was like 5 minutes of cap, been a while) before the changes to marauders, but I don't tend to use shield fittings for L4s that often.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#3 - 2014-03-27 11:26:39 UTC
Burst tank should last for a couple minutes at most and only if you have enough DPS to clear the heavys from a room within two to three times that amount of time. After you got rid of the heavy stuff you won't need much of a tank and only top up when you are heading for a gate or whatever.

But in answer to your cap stable tank;

[Maelstrom, tank]

8x 800mm Repeating Cannon II (Hail L)

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Cap Recharger II

Damage Control II
3x Gyrostabilizer II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
2x Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

5x Warrior II
5x Valkyrie II
5x Warrior II

[Statistics - Goldiiee]

Effective HP: 74,526 (Eve: 61,735)
Tank Ability: 921.68 DPS
Damage Profile - (EM: 25.00%, Ex: 25.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 25.00%)
Shield Resists - EM: 75.87%, Ex: 77.36%, Ki: 72.83%, Th: 63.78%
Armor Resists - EM: 66.00%, Ex: 23.50%, Ki: 36.25%, Th: 44.75%

Capacitor (Stable at 49.00%)

Volley Damage: 3,494.96
DPS: 1,056.43

So yes (for around 800mil) it is possible to get a permanent 900+ dps tank while doing 1000 dps damage. But ideally you will find (Once fully trained) that Gank can be more helpful in missions than Tank.

BTW I would not want to fly a maelstrom without an AB or MWD, but dropping the cap recharger and adding a AB gives you 22m44s capacitor.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#4 - 2014-03-27 11:45:50 UTC
i can think of only a few missions where the incoming damage would require 1k burst tank but since the introduction of the allmighty MJD there is no need for anymore than 400 tank in missions
Slan Audeles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-03-27 15:12:14 UTC
Thanks for the replies. Yes that Maelstrom has a nice shield tank with the 7.5% shield boost per level. I will need to EFT the equivalent CNR tank fit to see what it can pull off since that is my boat. But that is a lot of capacitor support, with two T2 cap control circuits and one T1, plus the relay plus the recharger. I have been told I *must* have rigors and flares in the riggings as a missile boat or I am gimping my DPS, not to mention a target painter in the mids. So that really is the crux of my question, Tank or Gank and how much tank for how long.

It sounds like 5-7 min of 500 dps tank for starters is good, even if I have to sacrifice some DPS for now.

Regarding the MJD drive option. I would rather avoid going that route if possible because it is less interactive (i.e. I don't get the pleasure of maneuvering my ship much around) and it is very slow to get anywhere within the room. That being said perhaps I am under the mistaken illusion that the speed of 400 with a perma AB and a small BS sig (no extenders to make it larger) has some value to reduce damage. It seems to but maybe I am hallucinating.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-03-27 15:42:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
i havent seen what u want to fly. When i decided to run missions i stumbled over a cap injected abaddon fit. Since then i run always cap injected.

[Raven, mission]

6x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Scourge Fury Cruise Missile)

Domination Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
2x Domination Thermic Dissipation Amplifier
X-Large Shield Booster II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II (Cap Booster 800)
Large Micro Jump Drive
Parallel Weapon Navigation Transmitter

Damage Control II
3x Ballistic Control System II
Type-D Attenuation Signal Augmentation

2x Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II

and here is a not injected (should say i like sniping in missions) it has 4 minutes on cap never tried it out so and i think the ac one is the more often used fit

[Maelstrom, Mission]

8x 1200mm Artillery Cannon II (EMP L)

Large Micro Jump Drive
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
EM Ward Amplifier II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
2x Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range Script)

4x Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#7 - 2014-03-27 15:49:54 UTC
Yes the Rigor and Flare rigs vastly improve the performance of the missile ships against smaller targets(and the difference between 1 or 2 volleys each cruiser can be huge over a full mission).

Well you could start with something like that:

[Raven Navy Issue, New Setup 2]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Cap Recharger II

'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Hobgoblin II x5
Caldari Navy Warden x3

Later on, 4 BCUs and T2 Cruiser missile launchers and missiles can give you the dps you need to also get rid of the cap recharger for a 3. painter or running 2 painters + prop mod when you have missions with gates.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#8 - 2014-03-27 17:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
Slan Audeles wrote:
Thanks for the replies. Yes that Maelstrom has a nice shield tank with the 7.5% shield boost per level. I will need to EFT the equivalent CNR tank fit to see what it can pull off since that is my boat. But that is a lot of capacitor support, with two T2 cap control circuits and one T1, plus the relay plus the recharger. I have been told I *must* have rigors and flares in the riggings as a missile boat or I am gimping my DPS, not to mention a target painter in the mids. So that really is the crux of my question, Tank or Gank and how much tank for how long.

It sounds like 5-7 min of 500 dps tank for starters is good, even if I have to sacrifice some DPS for now.

Regarding the MJD drive option. I would rather avoid going that route if possible because it is less interactive (i.e. I don't get the pleasure of maneuvering my ship much around) and it is very slow to get anywhere within the room. That being said perhaps I am under the mistaken illusion that the speed of 400 with a perma AB and a small BS sig (no extenders to make it larger) has some value to reduce damage. It seems to but maybe I am hallucinating.

if your starting missions i would highly advise to go with the "borring not so interactive" route of MJD since you can pretty easily make a nice tank based on a LARGE shield booster while not totaly gimping your missle aplication
ps. if you want to have those epic piloting moments why not skill up to a t3 ?
ps2. some basic planning and trygonometry helps to go around rooms fast Bear
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-03-27 18:42:41 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:

ps. if you want to have those epic piloting moments why not skill up to a t3 ?
ps2. some basic planning and trygonometry helps to go around rooms fast Bear


Tengu is boring as it comes, orbit beacon at 5k with AB on, aggro whole room (few missions need not apply), done after a while.
Grookshank
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-03-27 20:31:09 UTC
Since your pilot is about as new as mine, I'll tell you from my pov as a new player:
Forget about all those expensive and high skill fits people link to you for now. They are probably all really good and and well thought, but neither you nor me will probably fly a T2 or T3 ship anytime soon. No offense to anyone, but sometimes I think, people are too experienced and have too high skills to really imagine how far new players are off using the good stuff they advise.

I also call bull on the 1000 dps/tank formula for lvl4s. Needed to bliz them? Maybe, I don't have a clue. Needed to do them? No way.

What I say is: If you are not looking for blitzing, but a bit more of a challenge, try out higher level missions sooner.

I am neither an experienced nor really good player, my account is a few days younger than yours and I run lvl 4s since a week or more. I have 531 dps, 247 ehp/s (armor tanked) and my cap runs out in less than 5 mins (w/o prop mod). I started lvl4s with less than that and am now doing the Gallente epic, that is said to be way more difficult than the lvl 4 missions, since I saw no issues doing the lvl4s. I am half way in and it is way more fun, since it actually is a challenge.

I am quite sure we all can blitz and farm stuff more than enough later on. My advise is: just go for it!

P.S.: No, I won't pay for your ship, if you get blown up :)
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-03-27 21:07:43 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
Since your pilot is about as new as mine, I'll tell you from my pov as a new player:
Forget about all those expensive and high skill fits people link to you for now. They are probably all really good and and well thought, but neither you nor me will probably fly a T2 or T3 ship anytime soon. No offense to anyone, but sometimes I think, people are too experienced and have too high skills to really imagine how far new players are off using the good stuff they advise.

Actually u have a point there with my fits. Also i should say t2 tank is something u want as early as possible, t2 weapon mods the same and for t2 guns i only fit them because they have the hardest fitting reqs so u can normaly downgrade to meta 4 on my fits and they still work.

Grookshank wrote:

I also call bull on the 1000 dps/tank formula for lvl4s. Needed to bliz them? Maybe, I don't have a clue. Needed to do them? No way.

What I say is: If you are not looking for blitzing, but a bit more of a challenge, try out higher level missions sooner.

I am neither an experienced nor really good player, my account is a few days younger than yours and I run lvl 4s since a week or more. I have 531 dps, 247 ehp/s (armor tanked) and my cap runs out in less than 5 mins (w/o prop mod). I started lvl4s with less than that and am now doing the Gallente epic, that is said to be way more difficult than the lvl 4 missions, since I saw no issues doing the lvl4s. I am half way in and it is way more fun, since it actually is a challenge.

I am quite sure we all can blitz and farm stuff more than enough later on. My advise is: just go for it!

P.S.: No, I won't pay for your ship, if you get blown up :)

Be warned on the gallente epic arc, i have seen a proper fitted kronos tank melt in bastion in the mission before the last. Either it was bugged or the damage is totally evil.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#12 - 2014-03-27 21:22:56 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

Be warned on the gallente epic arc, i have seen a proper fitted kronos tank melt in bastion in the mission before the last. Either it was bugged or the damage is totally evil.

The damage is immense in the last few missions, I think it exceeds 1500dps pretty easily.

But he is right about the T2 fits, those are linked more as a guide of what and where you want to train. You can substitute T2 with Faction or if your really brave Deadspace modules, but when your new that's a massive waste of ISK if it gets lost in a mission. Meta 4 have some aspects that are better than T2 for certain modules, but for the most part you want to train for the T2.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-03-27 21:51:42 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
I also call bull on the 1000 dps/tank formula for lvl4s. Needed to bliz them? Maybe, I don't have a clue. Needed to do them? No way.
That rule of thumb is from before the introduction of the MJD.

Being able to just hop away and range-tank anything has made lvl 4 missions (including most of the epic arcs) trivial. Pretty much the only thing that hits you are cruise missiles, so you can get away with much less tank now than before. But if you try to do missions without a MJD, the old rule of thumb still applies.
Grookshank
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-03-27 22:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Grookshank
Thomas Builder wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
I also call bull on the 1000 dps/tank formula for lvl4s. Needed to bliz them? Maybe, I don't have a clue. Needed to do them? No way.
That rule of thumb is from before the introduction of the MJD.

Being able to just hop away and range-tank anything has made lvl 4 missions (including most of the epic arcs) trivial. Pretty much the only thing that hits you are cruise missiles, so you can get away with much less tank now than before. But if you try to do missions without a MJD, the old rule of thumb still applies.

Really don't want to sound like a wiseguy, but I can't even fit an MJD. You are right, that I try to snipe for afar as much as possible though.

Edit: Basically what I want to say is, missions become more interesting if you take a risk. But I don't want to derail this thread any further.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#15 - 2014-03-28 05:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
Grookshank wrote:

Really don't want to sound like a wiseguy, but I can't even fit an MJD. You are right, that I try to snipe for afar as much as possible though.

Edit: Basically what I want to say is, missions become more interesting if you take a risk. But I don't want to derail this thread any further.

if you want to have interesting missions why not pimp fit your ship and run a few ones in the sisters area :D ?
but back to the topic this is my contribution to a tanky mjd raven - lots of tank over 3 mins of cap and aplication rigs
high
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Small Tractor Beam II
med
Large Micro Jump Drive
Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster - 56 mils only and helps your tank alot
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Cap Recharger II
low
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Signal Amplifier II
rigs
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I

ps. there is still an option for a crapstable mjd typhoon but it would be armor tanked >_>
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-03-28 07:13:54 UTC
If you have a MJD fitted, you can do most missions with being able to run a 400 DPS tank for 7 min, that's what i'm using on my domi.

The only problem i have discovered is that some missions break the tank of the domi, because it lacks mobility. If you are using a ship that can kite, i think that tank would be enough to complete all level 4 missions as long as you don't pull more then you have to.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#17 - 2014-03-28 19:22:45 UTC
Try a Navy Scorpion.

Very easy to get plenty of tank and still have enough DPS to get the job done.

Can be fit with all T1 (( Meta items )) and still be successful.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-03-28 20:15:52 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Try a Navy Scorpion.

Very easy to get plenty of tank and still have enough DPS to get the job done.

Can be fit with all T1 (( Meta items )) and still be successful.


had a long discussion about it on another thread starting here made it short i prefer the damage application of the navy raven the other the better ewar capabilities of the navy scorp. Both ships fullfill their role but i still think the bigger alpha and better damage application means faster mission with less missiles used. But both r viable mission runners.
Grookshank
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-03-29 16:33:44 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Be warned on the gallente epic arc, i have seen a proper fitted kronos tank melt in bastion in the mission before the last. Either it was bugged or the damage is totally evil.

I sadly have to admit you are right. I am on that mission "Showtime" now and there is no way I can do that with my current ship or skills :(

Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#20 - 2014-03-29 18:05:29 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Be warned on the gallente epic arc, i have seen a proper fitted kronos tank melt in bastion in the mission before the last. Either it was bugged or the damage is totally evil.

I sadly have to admit you are right. I am on that mission "Showtime" now and there is no way I can do that with my current ship or skills :(

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

done that arc with 2 navy ravens with mid skilled chars the trick is to get the right resist profile and to be prepared to warp off you rpolly wont kill more then 1-2 at a time - but i heard reports of people soloing those in a passive rattler with max tank
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