These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

The Importance of Ethnicity

Author
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#1 - 2014-03-25 21:13:52 UTC
Much is Written on the IGS relating to Ethnicity, and why it is Important.

This features in Discussions such as the Ownership of Caldari Prime, and diplomatic Relations between the Amarr Empire and Minmatar Republic.

I find the importance of Ethnicity Difficult to Understand. It is Written in Scripture that All may be Chosen, which Means that Ethnicity is Unimportant to the Red God.

The principal Component of a Human Person is the Brain. In the Case of Identical Twins, it is the Brain where the Difference between individuals is Noticeable.

The rest of the Human body is Unimportant. The Shape of the Skull, the colour of the Skin, these Things can be modified easily, especially for Clone People, such as Capsuleers.

Thus, I am Unsure why the Ethnicity of a Person should be considered Important.

Why is it Important ?

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.

Jonas Wickonian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-03-25 21:19:04 UTC
now isn't that a question XD
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-03-25 21:38:46 UTC
This is simple, Ms. Synthia.

All humans are different, not a single one matches another (unless you are clones, of course). This is coded in person's DNA.

DNA and human genome doesn't code ethnicity or appearance explicitly, but rather proteins and their functions, how each cell works inside. What we see as a visual difference, is just a tip of huge iceberg hidden below. The more different persons visually, the more deep their difference on biochemical level (of course it doesn't include manipulations with bodies or injuries taken during life of the organism).

Different genome means not only different appearance, but different abilities and capacities. Even thinking process will be different.

As for importance of this, it is rather simple as well: different abilities dictate different areas in which each human will provide greater profit. Of course, you can't judge it by ethnicity and appearance alone, since, as I said, it is way more different inside. Thus proper testing and examinations must be taken to value a certain employee for a certain job position.

On a cultural level, different ethnicity show which ancestors you should honor.

But generally, for practical estimation ethnicity is too unclear category and shouldn't be used for fine ability estimation. Unless it is a gallentean ethnicity, of course.
They all are filth.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Vectra Sharpe
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-03-25 22:29:24 UTC
Sorry, Ms. Kim, but I don't really see what you mean.

I believe that ethnicity alone doesn't affect who someone is on a biochemical level. Sure there are differences in medicine in how certain drugs react to certain peoples, but deep down in a person's core of being, I don't think it matters. The culture which raised you, the experiences you have, and the people you include in your life have a far greater impact than any genetic difference. Why people seem so insistent on hating each other simply because others look different is just... confusing to me. I hold no ill will towards anyone else simply because of how they look, but instead for my impressions from how they act.

Or, well, at least I try my best, anyway.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#5 - 2014-03-25 22:49:41 UTC
Kim is correct in a manner of speaking, just not in the way she thinks. Ethnicity does matter in many cases, because genetics matter. Humans are not clones. They are not protoplasmic-built artificial constructs to exacting specifications.

Bloodlines are indeed either more or less susceptible to certain hereditary traits. Whether they be a predisposition or immunity to disease, physical attributes, or other genetic traits, all bloodlines are indeed unique. These traits carry on through the bloodlines, and there has not and never will be sufficient intermixing for humanity to become one homogeneous genetic pool.

Katrina Oniseki

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-03-25 22:58:53 UTC
Vectra Sharpe wrote:
Sorry, Ms. Kim, but I don't really see what you mean.

I believe that ethnicity alone doesn't affect who someone is on a biochemical level. Sure there are differences in medicine in how certain drugs react to certain peoples, but deep down in a person's core of being, I don't think it matters. The culture which raised you, the experiences you have, and the people you include in your life have a far greater impact than any genetic difference. Why people seem so insistent on hating each other simply because others look different is just... confusing to me. I hold no ill will towards anyone else simply because of how they look, but instead for my impressions from how they act.

Or, well, at least I try my best, anyway.

Im sorry, I think I wrote a bit too much, I will try to make my points more clear.
1. No peoples are born equal
2. Physical appearance alone doesn't matter
3. Greater physical difference depicts more greater difference in genome and thus deeper difference in biochemistry and thus abilities

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-03-25 23:01:50 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Kim is correct in a manner of speaking, just not in the way she thinks. Ethnicity does matter in many cases, because genetics matter. Humans are not clones. They are not protoplasmic-built artificial constructs to exacting specifications.

Bloodlines are indeed either more or less susceptible to certain hereditary traits. Whether they be a predisposition or immunity to disease, physical attributes, or other genetic traits, all bloodlines are indeed unique. These traits carry on through the bloodlines, and there has not and never will be sufficient intermixing for humanity to become one homogeneous genetic pool.

Well, speaking about bloodlines.
If a bloodline has developed a certain profitable trait, it is in best interests to continue developing in that direction, instead of mixing around with others to become better in other areas thus becoming grey mass.
Specialization is the key to success.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
Electus Matari
#8 - 2014-03-25 23:45:48 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Kim is correct in a manner of speaking, just not in the way she thinks. Ethnicity does matter in many cases, because genetics matter. Humans are not clones. They are not protoplasmic-built artificial constructs to exacting specifications.

Bloodlines are indeed either more or less susceptible to certain hereditary traits. Whether they be a predisposition or immunity to disease, physical attributes, or other genetic traits, all bloodlines are indeed unique. These traits carry on through the bloodlines, and there has not and never will be sufficient intermixing for humanity to become one homogeneous genetic pool.

Well, speaking about bloodlines.
If a bloodline has developed a certain profitable trait, it is in best interests to continue developing in that direction, instead of mixing around with others to become better in other areas thus becoming grey mass.
Specialization is the key to success.


And rampant inbreeding leads to drooling idiocy. Eventually. Or possibly insanity.

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-03-26 00:46:02 UTC
Ethnicity isn't important. Culture, ancestry, and background is, but ethnicity isn't at all. If you took the brain of an Amarrian and put it in a Minmatar they would function the same exact way.

Diana Kim wrote:

But generally, for practical estimation ethnicity is too unclear category and shouldn't be used for fine ability estimation. Unless it is a gallentean ethnicity, of course.
They all are filth.


Noooo Diana you were *this* close to saying something something discussion worthy! Keep trying! I know you'll get there!

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#10 - 2014-03-26 04:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
Ethnicity is another label created to simplify the classification of peoples backgrounds. People of a certain ethnicity often hold certain beliefs, cultures, and common experiences. However ethnicity is a flawed label because there are individuals with certain apparent ethnicities who have different upbringings and cultures than stereotyped. An example would be Minmatar slaves not holding "Minmatar" beliefs due to an Amarr upbringing.

People can identify with an ethnicity different than what others perceive of them. A brutor could be considered an ethnic Gallente by their peers if they were raised in the Federation while the brutor returns to Matar and re-identifies with the Minmatar ethnicity. Another example; Freedom fighters perceiving slaves of Minmatar descent as ethnic Minmatar when the slaves consider themselves a part of the Amarr ethnic group.

Both the perceived and perceivers perceptions matter though. Ethnicity matters in weird, irrational ways. Basically it doesn't matter besides when it matters. Politics and other human interactions often have ethnicity as a source of strife, with certain ethnicities distrusting others due to their perceptions. It, like all humam creations, is imperfect and has many bumps that cause confusion.

Hope that adds something to your answers.

-Eran

Edit: It's important to note that ethnicity is not always the same as "bloodlines". Ethnicity refers to social groups, not necessarily genetics (though it could also refer to genetics).
Wendrika
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-03-26 11:06:31 UTC
You do know that the process that transmuted us all into Capsuleers must take into account our Bloodlines, correct? I just happen to have studied the entire mind uploading process a few days ago, fascinating stuff.

It would seem that our bloodline gives us a distinct neural path way pattern that must be callibrated for the neuronal burner and imprinted on the stock clone, before our minds can be transfered. We wouldn't normally know this, since it all happens behind the scenes inside our favourite cloning corporations. To maintain an adequate average personality preservation Quoficient (ppQ) of 0.85, this is essencial. Even the formula of the gilial gel must be tweaked to match the growth quirks each bloodline has. My own research into the matter revealed this is specially evident in the Deteis population, but all bloodlines have some form of genetic stagnation that promotes certain phenotypical traits over others.

So no. It is not just a label. It is a part of the Capsuleer technology. Makes me wonder if the fact so many capsuleers are of mixed linneage has some correlation with the presence of the genetic marker for cerebral psychomorfism. The Almatter Foundation is going to research this matter further. For science!
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#12 - 2014-03-26 12:36:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nauplius
Synthetic Cultist wrote:

I find the importance of Ethnicity Difficult to Understand. It is Written in Scripture that All may be Chosen, which Means that Ethnicity is Unimportant to the Red God.


The Apocryphon says that all who are of the faith are Chosen; the Amarr Scriptures say the Amarr are Chosen. You seem to think the former is true and the latter false. But truth is that they are both true.

The Amarr are like wayward children; they have gone astray in liberalism. But God has not revoked their status as Chosen, and He will over time call them back to the true faith.

The people of the Minmatar Republic on the other hand God has given over to destruction, all of them except those few who have joined the true faith; they are to be hunted down, slaughtered, blooded, and sacrificed unto the glory of God. This He has revealed to me, Nauplius, a prophet of God unto the Empyreans.

So you see, ethnicity very much does matter to the red God — not so much to those of us already in the true faith, but certainly to those outside of it or who have strayed from it.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#13 - 2014-03-26 17:19:05 UTC
Wendrika wrote:
You do know that the process that transmuted us all into Capsuleers must take into account our Bloodlines, correct? I just happen to have studied the entire mind uploading process a few days ago, fascinating stuff.

It would seem that our bloodline gives us a distinct neural path way pattern that must be callibrated for the neuronal burner and imprinted on the stock clone, before our minds can be transfered. We wouldn't normally know this, since it all happens behind the scenes inside our favourite cloning corporations. To maintain an adequate average personality preservation Quoficient (ppQ) of 0.85, this is essencial. Even the formula of the gilial gel must be tweaked to match the growth quirks each bloodline has. My own research into the matter revealed this is specially evident in the Deteis population, but all bloodlines have some form of genetic stagnation that promotes certain phenotypical traits over others.

So no. It is not just a label. It is a part of the Capsuleer technology. Makes me wonder if the fact so many capsuleers are of mixed linneage has some correlation with the presence of the genetic marker for cerebral psychomorfism. The Almatter Foundation is going to research this matter further. For science!


Interesting.

First, it seems like you are mixing up ethnicity and "bloodlines," or genetics. Ethnicity is just a label. Genetics, not so much. Seems to be the error everyone continues to make.

Second, where did you "study" the brain-scanning process? I ask because what you're saying is nothing that I've heard or witnessed myself. It's true that genetics play an important role, but as you can see by looking at the mixed races of pilots out there, there is no one race more prone to have that genetic combination more than any others.

Well regardless, I'd love to hear more.

-Eran
Pravus Karal
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-03-27 01:25:14 UTC
One without heritage has little to live up to. Complacency takes root. Idleness.
One without history has nothing to prove. The emancipated weak may hold their branches high, but their leaves will never grow as big as the ones who's roots reach deepest.

Heritage and ethnicity are far greater motivators than seeking new found power. It's much more important to save face than to make a new one. No man or woman of rich ethnic background can allow themselves to let the past of their people fall from fame.
Your name must not die with you!
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#15 - 2014-03-27 03:52:33 UTC
Quote:
Why is it Important ?


It isn't. We share 90% of our genetic code with nearby organisms such as primates, we share 35% of our DNA with some trees. The things that make us different are really tiny in comparison to the things that make us the same.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#16 - 2014-03-27 05:15:23 UTC
Culture and genetics are two different things. Ethnic Culture is all important, genetic legacy... eh... not so much.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#17 - 2014-03-27 06:43:55 UTC
With the Empire you will find two vary different viewpoint existing at the same time:

The first, the "old guard" viewpoint of the True Amarr being superior to everyone else and the whole package that goes with it. You have no doubt encountered that more times than you care to. Personally I find this repugnant, as it smacks of the sort of mindset of the tribal radicals that continue to harass all of New Eden to this day for the exact same reasons.

The second, the "progressive" viewpoint (of which I am a subscriber), which is the exact opposite: That Amarrian is defined by being a member of the Amarrian Faith, and that any racial/ethnic background is utterly irrelevant in comparison. Likewise, I consider one who swears loyalty to a Caldari Megacorporation to be Caldari, or a Minmatar growing up in the Federation to be Gallente... if they wish to be thought of as such.

Of course living the Mandate has probably helped shaped that view, of course. A genome test would show the people here as (mostly) Minmatar, but their hearts and souls are as pure as any high-born True Amarrian (sometimes even moreso, honestly) and thus I consider us all equals before God.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#18 - 2014-03-27 07:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
I'm walking proof that overspecialization in genetics is a very bad idea (recently corrected to what extent it can be, thank the Maker). To gain positive traits, you have to identify and breed them in, preferably from very different genetic codes, in order to avoid anomalies and the genetic maladies associated with inbreeding. Even within the wider selection of a single ethnicity, specialization merely maintains a genetic legacy, while doing nothing to improve it in terms of evolutionary success.

An old saying sums it up...
"Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. Weakness is slow death."

Honestly, my culture means a great deal to me. My ethnicity, not so much. I could find out I'm half-Gallente tomorrow and not even bat an eye in response. I find it amusing when others rave about it, truth be told, given that the very concept of "pure" genetics, is flawed. We all share common genes, and even the most ethnically "pure" DNA has junk sequences.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Zenariae
#19 - 2014-03-29 08:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Zenariae
.
Goa Chai
Doomheim
#20 - 2014-03-31 18:24:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Goa Chai
Zenariae wrote:
Oh plueeze – when was the last time you had colon therapy? Same old problem with some of these ossified Amarrians – they never lose the stale odour of old men and torpid religion. Don’t you get it? All blood tastes the same … 


Unless you're ethnic Gallentean, our blood tastes like freedom. Cool
12Next page