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High sec Mission runners just got completely screwed by CCP

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#601 - 2014-03-26 00:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Mario Putzo wrote:
No you just don't read conversations. Granted I said it to your friend Baltec, but I said it numerous times yesterday as well.
The thing I saw you saying to him was that production would decrease, which is unlikely. I try to read it all but since you will literally argue with everything people say, it does get tedious.

Mario Putzo wrote:
Also FYI since you want to compare to something other than Veld

Hed > movement today 87K units @ 706 isk/ea for total market value of 66,000,000 isk
Ark > movement today 37K units @ 3300 isk/ea for a total market value of 125,000,000 isk.

Less than half the units sold, yet over double the market value. Strange NS ore sucks eh.
Great! And still ore is not valued that way. The only people selling ore are people who can't get max refine for whatever reason. Go ask in science and industry, and they will tell you quite clearly that the method of measuring ore value is by the refined minerals you get from it.

And have you looked at the ore size? Hedbergite at 706/unit is 235isk/m3, which is lower than it's mineral value. You'd also only get like 120k units on a jump freighter to ship it unless you used compression which is currently lossy and requires fuel to do. This is why it would not be sold as ore.

Arkonor would work out at 206isk/m3 based on your values there in ore form, which again is below mineral value.

Mario Putzo wrote:
125/66*100 = 189% difference

I don't even want to compare it to Veld, looks like it was a nice day for NS materials, Veld had a good day today to 91M for 1.3B
What is this calculation even trying to do? You are working out the difference in total sales of Arkonor and Hedbergite? How does that relate to anything at all?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Mario Putzo
#602 - 2014-03-26 00:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Lucas Kell wrote:

And have you looked at the ore size? Hedbergite at 706/unit is 235isk/m3, which is lower than it's mineral value. You'd also only get like 120k units on a jump freighter to ship it unless you used compression which is currently lossy and requires fuel to do. This is why it would not be sold as ore.

Arkonor would work out at 206isk/m3 based on your values there in ore form, which again is below mineral value.


Lol So now it doesn't count because its not the most efficient way to do it! Go study up on what marketable profitability is then come back and have a discussion.
Mario Putzo
#603 - 2014-03-26 00:22:40 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

Mario Putzo wrote:
125/66*100 = 189% difference

I don't even want to compare it to Veld, looks like it was a nice day for NS materials, Veld had a good day today to 91M for 1.3B
What is this calculation even trying to do? You are working out the difference in total sales of Arkonor and Hedbergite? How does that relate to anything at all?


No I am looking at the total market value generated by Arkonor and Hed. If I wanted to look at total sales I would look at the amount of movement.

Arkonor made 189% more isk, despite moving 57.5% less units. I wonder, which is more profitable today. Truth be told Ark is even higher than 189% factoring in the movement its around 212% But I shant divulge all my secrets. Otherwise how would I make Isk.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#604 - 2014-03-26 00:24:24 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

And have you looked at the ore size? Hedbergite at 706/unit is 235isk/m3, which is lower than it's mineral value. You'd also only get like 120k units on a jump freighter to ship it unless you used compression which is currently lossy and requires fuel to do. This is why it would not be sold as ore.

Arkonor would work out at 206isk/m3 based on your values there in ore form, which again is below mineral value.
Lol So now it doesn't count because its not the most efficient way to do it! Go study up on what marketable profitability is then come back and have a discussion.
What? Seriously I don't understand what you even want me to look up.

The value of ore is it's mineral content. That is it's value, it's price, thus it's profitability will be base off of that. the crazy part is, if you do it your way, it works out at a LOWER value for NS ore, so it goes even more against what you are stating as the figures, because the volume of NS ore is considerably higher.

How about you give me a list of Velspar, Hedbergite and Pyroxeres, and you tell me what YOU think their "profitability" values are, and how you reached them and perhaps I can have an insight into what you are thinking. By all means, go into Science and Industry though and ask them how they value up mining. They will confirm that the hourly value is - (ValueOfMinerals / BatchVolume) * m3/hour. Or going by fuzzworks where some of it is precalculated, it's isk/m3 * m3/hour.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#605 - 2014-03-26 00:29:26 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

Mario Putzo wrote:
125/66*100 = 189% difference

I don't even want to compare it to Veld, looks like it was a nice day for NS materials, Veld had a good day today to 91M for 1.3B
What is this calculation even trying to do? You are working out the difference in total sales of Arkonor and Hedbergite? How does that relate to anything at all?


No I am looking at the total market value generated by Arkonor and Hed. If I wanted to look at total sales I would look at the amount of movement.

Arkonor made 189% more isk, despite moving 57.5% less units. I wonder, which is more profitable today. Truth be told Ark is even higher than 189% factoring in the movement its around 212% But I shant divulge all my secrets. Otherwise how would I make Isk.
Firstly, it may be less units, but Arkonor is over 5 times the size of Hedbergite, so you get <1/5 of the units per cycle. You know that ores aren't all the same volume, yes?

Secondly, how does the total market movement of Arkonor vs Hedbergite factor into anything? I'm beginning to think you don't even know how the markets work. Seriously, go get a 2nd opinion if you want, but the way you are calculating your figures is absolutely wrong.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#606 - 2014-03-26 00:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Fey Ivory
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
@Baltec1 & Tippia

Im not sure why you think this reproc nerf will make anything better. We still know that blitzing lvl4 is still the most profitable. still not by much but still more profitable.

Iwe argued with you before Tippia, and i remember you advocating how bad "grinding" is... so how are this nerf better, with this nerf, blitzing the few lvl4 missions in absurdum ower and ower, till you cry of boredom, how is this good gameplay ?

When i do Lv4, i actually enjoy comming back in my noctis picking up the loot, and sorting it keeping the meta4 mods and proc the rest.... its not couse its BETTER, but it still is almost as good as blitzing, but way more fun, its atleast alittle bit of break and change, and once in awhile you find some "good" meta 4s...

So lets nerf this game play, so that the more tedious grinding ways, shines in EvE... i say this is backward thinking ! lol


Its not almost the same as blitzing. You will not, for example, get close to 50mil/hr in level 3s if you stop to kill and loot everything. Equally if you do stop to do these things then the loot you sell on is worth much more than the junk you reprocess.

Why this is a good thing is because really, the people who should be providing minerals are the miners. Mission runners have a boatload of things to earn isk on while miners only have the rocks they suck on.


When i do LV4s in my rattler... the combined net from Mission reward, LPs, bounty, M4s and finaly minerals from procsing, can be more then 50mil a hour, usually it isent, it depends what Missions you get... Gone Beserk, Damsel in Distress, Worlds colide, Angel Extravaganza and Dread Pirate Scarlet, to name a few... can all really being alot of isks, due to what mods that drop... and high target rats... ((Edit and im slow compared to Nvus and Hel in their rattlers, since they pack about 1400dps, while i prefer to run my 250k ehp tank and only 900dps))

But normally its under 50mil, but as said it warries, alot more, as your alot more dependent on random factors... this said...

Its true that Miners will relativly get a buff from this... but its done in a stupid way... add tons of more Missions to add more variety before you implement this "nerf", turning sometihng that works and point things towards, "grinding" is just plain deevolution...

And main point is... as you say its still Better to blitz... but most dont do it... couse its so utterly boring !
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#607 - 2014-03-26 00:51:53 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
but most dont do it... couse its so utterly boring !


Most do infact do blitzing or leave the loot after killing the ships, this is why you find scrappers lurking in most mission systems
Mario Putzo
#608 - 2014-03-26 00:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Lucas Kell wrote:

Secondly, how does the total market movement of Arkonor vs Hedbergite factor into anything? I'm beginning to think you don't even know how the markets work. Seriously, go get a 2nd opinion if you want, but the way you are calculating your figures is absolutely wrong.


Movement is everything!

ISK/HR doesn't stop when you fill your cargo hold. If you drop something on market without factoring in the movement your stuff could sit there for hours on end. Meanwhile someone like me can be mining something completely different cleaning up because of the difference in volume.

This is why

1) Veldspar is the best benchmark comparison It always moves at a stable price
2) Averaging regional ores movement/price is important

Just mining the same thing all day everyday will not net you strong market profitability, outside of Veldspar. Its why things like Arkonor can sell 57% less units yet make 189% more isk. Its why on average nullsec ores will give you 192% more isk (145% time/isk) than HS ores.

Market Volume, Market Movement and Isk/m3 must all be taken into consideration. ISK/HR is a benchmark, not a guarantee.

I promise you, if you spend a day mining Null Ore you will make more ISK than spending a day mining HS Ore. It is simple simple math.

EDIT: This is assuming you are not doing something ******** like just filling buy orders of course.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#609 - 2014-03-26 00:53:48 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
@Baltec1 & Tippia

Im not sure why you think this reproc nerf will make anything better. We still know that blitzing lvl4 is still the most profitable. still not by much but still more profitable.

Iwe argued with you before Tippia, and i remember you advocating how bad "grinding" is... so how are this nerf better, with this nerf, blitzing the few lvl4 missions in absurdum ower and ower, till you cry of boredom, how is this good gameplay ?

When i do Lv4, i actually enjoy comming back in my noctis picking up the loot, and sorting it keeping the meta4 mods and proc the rest.... its not couse its BETTER, but it still is almost as good as blitzing, but way more fun, its atleast alittle bit of break and change, and once in awhile you find some "good" meta 4s...

So lets nerf this game play, so that the more tedious grinding ways, shines in EvE... i say this is backward thinking ! lol


Its not almost the same as blitzing. You will not, for example, get close to 50mil/hr in level 3s if you stop to kill and loot everything. Equally if you do stop to do these things then the loot you sell on is worth much more than the junk you reprocess.

Why this is a good thing is because really, the people who should be providing minerals are the miners. Mission runners have a boatload of things to earn isk on while miners only have the rocks they suck on.


When i do LV4s in my rattler... the combined net from Mission reward, LPs, bounty, M4s and finaly minerals from procsing, can be more then 50mil a hour, usually it isent, it depends what Missions you get... Gone Beserk, Damsel in Distress, Worlds colide, Angel Extravaganza and Dread Pirate Scarlet, to name a few... can all really being alot of isks, due to what mods that drop... and high target rats...

But normally its under 50mil, but as said it warries, alot more, as your alot more dependent on random factors... this said...

Its true that Miners will relativly get a buff from this... but its done in a stupid way... add tons of more Missions to add more variety before you implement this "nerf", turning sometihng that works and point things towards, "grinding" is just plain deevolution...

And main point is... as you say its still Better to blitz... but most dont do it... couse its so utterly boring !


Actually blitz plus cherry picking is probably optimal. You can cherry pick either by knowing which named ships might drop pricey mods like 20 mill implants, only looting large wrecks close to you or, more recently, using a MTU and sorting for mods worth over a particular figure (generlly half a mill for my mission alt) and abandon the rest. In no cases is it worthwhile collecting cheap mods that need reprocessing.
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2014-03-26 00:58:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
but most dont do it... couse its so utterly boring !


Most do infact do blitzing or leave the loot after killing the ships, this is why you find scrappers lurking in most mission systems


yes some blitz... id still say more loot, just couse its almost as valuable, and gives alot more variation... people are playing for Fun after all... im curious though... you seem to know alot of this... do you do alot of LV4s, or is in a chat daily where people discuss doing Missions, or ask for help ?... etc... you know, i am , we in CAS are very active, both in high sec and in Null
John XIII
The Carnifex Corp
#611 - 2014-03-26 01:02:08 UTC
Type this in local: "Any newbros want to come salvage my missions?"

Doing this is very rewarding. It may hurt your ISK/hr but helping show the new guys the ropes and chatting with them about EvE more than makes up for it.

Between Ignorance and Wisdom
Mario Putzo
#612 - 2014-03-26 01:02:35 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
but most dont do it... couse its so utterly boring !


Most do infact do blitzing or leave the loot after killing the ships, this is why you find scrappers lurking in most mission systems


yes some blitz... id still say more loot, just couse its almost as valuable, and gives alot more variation... people are playing for Fun after all... im curious though... you seem to know alot of this... do you do alot of LV4s, or is in a chat daily where people discuss doing Missions, or ask for help ?... etc... you know, i am , we in CAS are very active, both in high sec and in Null


People typically blits for the LP/standings not the mission isk rewards
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#613 - 2014-03-26 01:05:23 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
@Baltec1 & Tippia

Im not sure why you think this reproc nerf will make anything better. We still know that blitzing lvl4 is still the most profitable. still not by much but still more profitable.

Iwe argued with you before Tippia, and i remember you advocating how bad "grinding" is... so how are this nerf better, with this nerf, blitzing the few lvl4 missions in absurdum ower and ower, till you cry of boredom, how is this good gameplay ?

When i do Lv4, i actually enjoy comming back in my noctis picking up the loot, and sorting it keeping the meta4 mods and proc the rest.... its not couse its BETTER, but it still is almost as good as blitzing, but way more fun, its atleast alittle bit of break and change, and once in awhile you find some "good" meta 4s...

So lets nerf this game play, so that the more tedious grinding ways, shines in EvE... i say this is backward thinking ! lol


Its not almost the same as blitzing. You will not, for example, get close to 50mil/hr in level 3s if you stop to kill and loot everything. Equally if you do stop to do these things then the loot you sell on is worth much more than the junk you reprocess.

Why this is a good thing is because really, the people who should be providing minerals are the miners. Mission runners have a boatload of things to earn isk on while miners only have the rocks they suck on.


When i do LV4s in my rattler... the combined net from Mission reward, LPs, bounty, M4s and finaly minerals from procsing, can be more then 50mil a hour, usually it isent, it depends what Missions you get... Gone Beserk, Damsel in Distress, Worlds colide, Angel Extravaganza and Dread Pirate Scarlet, to name a few... can all really being alot of isks, due to what mods that drop... and high target rats...

But normally its under 50mil, but as said it warries, alot more, as your alot more dependent on random factors... this said...

Its true that Miners will relativly get a buff from this... but its done in a stupid way... add tons of more Missions to add more variety before you implement this "nerf", turning sometihng that works and point things towards, "grinding" is just plain deevolution...

And main point is... as you say its still Better to blitz... but most dont do it... couse its so utterly boring !


Actually blitz plus cherry picking is probably optimal. You can cherry pick either by knowing which named ships might drop pricey mods like 20 mill implants, only looting large wrecks close to you or, more recently, using a MTU and sorting for mods worth over a particular figure (generlly half a mill for my mission alt) and abandon the rest. In no cases is it worthwhile collecting cheap mods that need reprocessing.


yes, you can optimice this ewen more... i do it more couse it is abit of fun sorting all mods, and alot of M3 go to CAS effort to blow up scrap buckets in Null... i give alot of them away with T1ships, for when rookies go splat in space...

The point is just blitzing through the few Missions, is boring, and for me its not about what best really... i still like to be paid for my time, so while what i do now is viable and almost as good as blitzing... turning it into mindless grinding, ower and ower ... then you can as well shoot rocks, its just as repetetive... YaY was this about fun ?
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#614 - 2014-03-26 01:08:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Fey Ivory
John XIII wrote:
Type this in local: "Any newbros want to come salvage my missions?"

Doing this is very rewarding. It may hurt your ISK/hr but helping show the new guys the ropes and chatting with them about EvE more than makes up for it.



Nha, you invite them let them follow, share everything from bounty to loot... most mods they get are upgrades early, and they cant do LV4s when they start, while i can solo all level 4s in my sleep... so yes its a loss, but EvE is about social, having fun, and they need the ISKs for ships, so they can blow them up in null when we go roaming... shooting Goons :D

I still want to earn something, my good will goes along way... but... ewen i want to earn something... !
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#615 - 2014-03-26 01:09:04 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
but most dont do it... couse its so utterly boring !


Most do infact do blitzing or leave the loot after killing the ships, this is why you find scrappers lurking in most mission systems


yes some blitz... id still say more loot, just couse its almost as valuable, and gives alot more variation... people are playing for Fun after all... im curious though... you seem to know alot of this... do you do alot of LV4s, or is in a chat daily where people discuss doing Missions, or ask for help ?... etc... you know, i am , we in CAS are very active, both in high sec and in Null


When running level 4s you want to get as much LP as possible as that is where the isk is. We goons do a lot of research into whatever we do and this is the best way to go about missions. Idealy you want to finish missions by killing as few ships as possible in the quickest time you can manage. The only thing you loot are the mission items.
Mario Putzo
#616 - 2014-03-26 01:10:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
but most dont do it... couse its so utterly boring !


Most do infact do blitzing or leave the loot after killing the ships, this is why you find scrappers lurking in most mission systems


yes some blitz... id still say more loot, just couse its almost as valuable, and gives alot more variation... people are playing for Fun after all... im curious though... you seem to know alot of this... do you do alot of LV4s, or is in a chat daily where people discuss doing Missions, or ask for help ?... etc... you know, i am , we in CAS are very active, both in high sec and in Null


When running level 4s you want to get as much LP as possible as that is where the isk is. We goons do a lot of research into whatever we do and this is the best way to go about missions. Idealy you want to finish missions by killing as few ships as possible in the quickest time you can manage. The only thing you loot are the mission items.


Assuming all you care for is LP/HR.
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#617 - 2014-03-26 01:11:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
but most dont do it... couse its so utterly boring !


Most do infact do blitzing or leave the loot after killing the ships, this is why you find scrappers lurking in most mission systems


yes some blitz... id still say more loot, just couse its almost as valuable, and gives alot more variation... people are playing for Fun after all... im curious though... you seem to know alot of this... do you do alot of LV4s, or is in a chat daily where people discuss doing Missions, or ask for help ?... etc... you know, i am , we in CAS are very active, both in high sec and in Null


When running level 4s you want to get as much LP as possible as that is where the isk is. We goons do a lot of research into whatever we do and this is the best way to go about missions. Idealy you want to finish missions by killing as few ships as possible in the quickest time you can manage. The only thing you loot are the mission items.


Well id say your research is theory, and like most theory it might not be right when put in practise, how about you put your theory in practise ;P...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#618 - 2014-03-26 01:18:30 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:


Well id say your research is theory, and like most theory it might not be right when put in practise, how about you put your theory in practise ;P...


We do.

Thats why we earn more running level 3s than many people on these forums running level 4s.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#619 - 2014-03-26 01:18:48 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
but most dont do it... couse its so utterly boring !


Most do infact do blitzing or leave the loot after killing the ships, this is why you find scrappers lurking in most mission systems


yes some blitz... id still say more loot, just couse its almost as valuable, and gives alot more variation... people are playing for Fun after all... im curious though... you seem to know alot of this... do you do alot of LV4s, or is in a chat daily where people discuss doing Missions, or ask for help ?... etc... you know, i am , we in CAS are very active, both in high sec and in Null


When running level 4s you want to get as much LP as possible as that is where the isk is. We goons do a lot of research into whatever we do and this is the best way to go about missions. Idealy you want to finish missions by killing as few ships as possible in the quickest time you can manage. The only thing you loot are the mission items.


Well id say your research is theory, and like most theory it might not be right when put in practise, how about you put your theory in practise ;P...



I would say it should work well if you had a selection of lvl IV agents available and could afford to reject any non-blitzable missions. It is a bit less practical if you are wanting to run something like just SOE IVs and you only have the one local agent.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#620 - 2014-03-26 01:20:45 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:


I would say it should work well if you had a selection of lvl IV agents available and could afford to reject any non-blitzable missions. It is a bit less practical if you are wanting to run something like just SOE IVs and you only have the one local agent.


Get your social skills up and you can blitz off one agent forever.