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Isboxer, why is it allowed?

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#501 - 2014-03-25 15:15:57 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
I'm more curious as to why it's called " IS,BOXER".. I imagine it should be called "iskboxer" or something.
Boxer is because it's a multiboxing tool. The "IS" is for Inner Space, which is the game virtualisation application. That's the actual part that does all of the performance and graphics management and all of the input broadcasts and all of that stuff.

ISBoxer is actually just the configuration tool that sits on top and allows you to set up the how Inner Space will work. So when people go "grr isboxer" they really mean "grr Inner Space".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#502 - 2014-03-25 15:17:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Lucas Kell wrote:
If you use Linux, the window manager actually will do it for you. But that's beside the point. You stated that it was automation as you push a key once and in the background multiple events are triggered. I just pointed out that windows replicates key presses in the background to all listeners by default, therefore, if your dumb idea of automation is believed, then windows itself is an automation tool.


windows doesnt do anything on itself, this is why you need isboxer for it.

In same manner you could argue that a Desert Eagle isnt a weapon at all, all it does is accelerating a piece of metal using reactive chemicals to high velocity - occassionally it would hit and penetrate someones elses body, inducing more or less harmful tissue deformations; totally loosing the focus of what this actually means in its working context - killing people. Same goes for key broadcast as well, it might be declared as key broadcast, implementing idea of automation.

Lucas Kell wrote:
No, it's really not. Automation tools may use a broadcaster as one of the components, but on it's own it is not automation.
see above. you might call it harmless names but it its working context its implementation of automation.
You want a horde of alts following and copying you but you dont want to bother clicking them all, so you use isboxer for automating them.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#503 - 2014-03-25 15:21:49 UTC
Admit it. You think all multiboxers should be banned too.

And then after that fleets. Since its not fair when others have more friends that you.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#504 - 2014-03-25 15:35:24 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
windows doesnt do anything on itself, this is why you need isboxer for it.

In same manner you could argue that a Desert Eagle isnt a weapon at all, all it does is accelerating a piece of metal using reactive chemicals to high velocity - occassionally it would hit and penetrate someones elses body, inducing more or less harmful tissue deformations; totally loosing the focus of what this actually means in its working context - killing people. Same goes for key broadcast as well, it might be declared as key broadcast, implementing idea of automation.
But that's not what you are saying. You are saying the act of a single key press resulting in more than one event means automation, which is bullshit. You can make it as convoluted as you want, but a dumb key re-broadcaster is NOT automation. No matter what way you look at it.

Robert Caldera wrote:
see above. you might call it harmless names but it its working context its implementation of automation.
You want a horde of alts following and copying you but you dont want to bother clicking them all, so you use isboxer for automating them.
And like above, it's still not automation. Just because automation tools can use key broadcasting doesn't mean that key broadcasting itself defines automation. You have no idea what you are talking about, you've just dug yourself into a hole so deep that you now have to stick by what you've previously said no matter how dumb it is to say it.

I really don't know what you hope to accomplish here. I'm never going to turn around and agree to something so nonsensical as calling all dumb repeaters automation so this will continue forever. Nothing you say here will change anything. CCP have already made their ruling, so while you sit here in a tear fueled rage spouting off nonsense, multiboxers will continue to multibox.

So other than proving your lack of technical knowledge is there anything else you hope to accomplish?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#505 - 2014-03-25 15:43:15 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:

bot is a program for controlling a client in a certain predefined manner. Isboxer can be considered as a programmed bot who replicates all your actions. From the perspective of the game, it is a number of bots running together with your main doing same things.

But that's just wrong, and you know it, as evidenced by your vague definition of "bot" and lame qualifiers like "can be considered." A helper bot is a bot controlling the client and makes decisions based on interpreting game data, an isboxered helper does not interpret game data, does not make decisions, and is directly controlled by the player. Furthermore, "from the perspective of the game," the game can't tell the difference between an alt, a different player, an alt controlled with isboxer, or a true bot, as each input is coming from the respective client.

Robert Caldera wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Also, one of ISboxers primary features is easy client switching and managing screen space. I even know people that ONLY use it for those features, because each account is on a different grid, attacking different targets. Because in most cases you are in fact interacting with multiple clients.

sure this is a legit use, however this is not what the context of this thread is.

The context of the thread is a bunch of people seeing other people's gameplay that doesn't appear normal or natural, and deciding to hack away at language until it serves their purpose of eliminating said gameplay. They define bots as "i'll know it when I see it," and leave it at that. The difference is there however. Its the difference between a marionette Pinocchio on strings and a walking, talking, stringless pinocchio.

Robert Caldera wrote:
Batelle wrote:
I'm particularly amused by the argument that isboxer shouldn't be allowed because it saves you time alt+tabbing. I guess we should ban big tvs and eliminate windowed mode too. They are totally pay2win Roll.

its not just alt tabbing, its organizing and managing your fleet including aligns, warps, locks and weapon deployment.

Those are all the same tasks weather you're using isboxer or not, isboxer does not reduce the complexity of those tasks, and carrying out those tasks without isboxer is completely doable (because that's what people did before CCP okay'd isboxer).

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#506 - 2014-03-25 15:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Lucas Kell wrote:
But that's not what you are saying. You are saying the act of a single key press resulting in more than one event means automation, which is bullshit. You can make it as convoluted as you want, but a dumb key re-broadcaster is NOT automation. No matter what way you look at it.

no, actually its the other way around, its automation implemented by key broadcast. Focus on the idea and purpose not the technical detail or method used for realization. Exactly as penetrating and deformation of issue from my desert eagle example isnt synonym for killing someone, the other way around its the exact method employed for this certain purpose.

Lucas Kell wrote:
And like above, it's still not automation. Just because automation tools can use key broadcasting doesn't mean that key broadcasting itself defines automation. You have no idea what you are talking about, you've just dug yourself into a hole so deep that you now have to stick by what you've previously said no matter how dumb it is to say it.

it is what it is, you want to steer a fleet of alts by maintaining control over 1 client. In other words, you want your alts running with you without directly steering them, this is a form of automation.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Nothing you say here will change anything. CCP have already made their ruling, so while you sit here in a tear fueled rage spouting off nonsense, multiboxers will continue to multibox.

perhaps you are right and I wont change anything but I still will voice my opinion over the matter. U mad?
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#507 - 2014-03-25 15:52:02 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
But that's not what you are saying. You are saying the act of a single key press resulting in more than one event means automation, which is bullshit. You can make it as convoluted as you want, but a dumb key re-broadcaster is NOT automation. No matter what way you look at it.

no, actually its the other way around, its automation implemented by key broadcast. Focus on the idea and purpose not the technical detail or method used for realization. Exactly as penetrating and deformation of issue from my desert eagle example isnt synonym for killing someone, the other way around its the exact method employed for this certain purpose.

Lucas Kell wrote:
And like above, it's still not automation. Just because automation tools can use key broadcasting doesn't mean that key broadcasting itself defines automation. You have no idea what you are talking about, you've just dug yourself into a hole so deep that you now have to stick by what you've previously said no matter how dumb it is to say it.

it is what it is, you want to steer a fleet of alts by maintaining control over 1 client. In other words, you want your alts running with you without directly steering them, this is a form of automation.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Nothing you say here will change anything. CCP have already made their ruling, so while you sit here in a tear fueled rage spouting off nonsense, multiboxers will continue to multibox.

perhaps you are right and I wont change anything but I still will voice my opinion over the matter. U mad?



In order to trigger any automation (muliple key strokes) you must do something 'manually'. No automation at all can take place unless physically someone does something, therefore the entire process is manual not automated
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#508 - 2014-03-25 15:53:42 UTC
Batelle wrote:

But that's just wrong, and you know it, as evidenced by your vague definition of "bot" and lame qualifiers like "can be considered."

this is why I called it "form of bot" not just "bot".

Batelle wrote:

A helper bot is a bot controlling the client and makes decisions based on interpreting game data, an isboxered helper does not interpret game data, does not make decisions, and is directly controlled by the player.

does it neccessarily need to? A bot is a piece of software which performs tasks without direct user interaction. Like isboxed client is doing things with no direct human interaction, why I consider them bots.

Batelle wrote:

Furthermore, "from the perspective of the game," the game can't tell the difference between an alt, a different player, an alt controlled with isboxer, or a true bot, as each input is coming from the respective client.

true, so? Whats the point? It looks like a player, in fact its just a minimized client running in Inner Space and copying a human. I call this automated gameplay.

Batelle wrote:

The context of the thread is a bunch of people seeing other people's gameplay that doesn't appear normal or natural, and deciding to hack away at language until it serves their purpose of eliminating said gameplay. They define bots as "i'll know it when I see it," and leave it at that. The difference is there however. Its the difference between a marionette Pinocchio on strings and a walking, talking, stringless pinocchio.

the context of this thread are automated isboxed fleets which people argue about, for a good reason.

Batelle wrote:

Those are all the same tasks weather you're using isboxer or not, isboxer does not reduce the complexity of those tasks, and carrying out those tasks without isboxer is completely doable (because that's what people did before CCP okay'd isboxer).

if it doesnt reduce any compexity why would someone use it? Your fallacy is obvious.
They in fact reduce complexity, namely to replicate the input across 20 clients manually and fcking up eventually or not even being able to manage it at all without automation tools.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#509 - 2014-03-25 15:56:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
ImYourMom wrote:

In order to trigger any automation (muliple key strokes) you must do something 'manually'. No automation at all can take place unless physically someone does something, therefore the entire process is manual not automated

yes. This is partially definition of automation. It does not require AI or imply complete autonomous operation at all. Someone presses a button and a machine starts a complex or at least some operation, like iterating through number of eve clients and feeding them your input because you are too lazy or too convenient to do it by yourself.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#510 - 2014-03-25 15:58:48 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
no, actually its the other way around, its automation implemented by key broadcast. Focus on the idea and purpose not the technical detail or method used for realization. Exactly as penetrating and deformation of issue from my desert eagle example isnt synonym for killing someone, the other way around its the exact method employed for this certain purpose.
No, it's not. It's just a dumb broadcast. There is no automation.

Robert Caldera wrote:
it is what it is, you want to steer a fleet of alts by maintaining control over 1 client. In other words, you want your alts running with you without directly steering them, this is a form of automation.
No, it's not. I do have to control them. The fact that I control them with a single input device doesn't make it automation. Every single thing they do I have to tell them to do.

Robert Caldera wrote:
perhaps you are right and I wont change anything but I still will voice my opinion over the matter. U mad?
Why would I be mad? I'm not the teary eyed one raging out against CCPs decisions. You can voice your opinion wherever and however you want.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#511 - 2014-03-25 16:02:11 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
No, it's not. It's just a dumb broadcast. There is no automation.

yep, there is.

Lucas Kell wrote:
No, it's not. I do have to control them. The fact that I control them with a single input device doesn't make it automation. Every single thing they do I have to tell them to do.

no you dont. Isbox thing reads your input and feeds it forward. You are not interacting with all those clients.

Lucas Kell wrote:
]Why would I be mad? I'm not the teary eyed one raging out against CCPs decisions. You can voice your opinion wherever and however you want.

good.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#512 - 2014-03-25 16:05:41 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
does it neccessarily need to? A bot is a piece of software which performs tasks without direct user interaction. Like isboxed client is doing things with no direct human interaction, why I consider them bots.
But it does take direct user interaction. No task is performed without the user interacting.

Robert Caldera wrote:
if it doesnt reduce any compexity why would someone use it? Your fallacy is obvious.
They in fact reduce complexity, namely to replicate the input across 20 clients manually and fcking up eventually or not even being able to manage it at all without automation tools.
Actually, you're more likely to mess up with ISboxer running, since it's a dumb broadcaster, not automation. It doesn't make any judgement about whether anything is in the right state, it just does exactly what you tell it to do, when you tell it, quite literally.

The main benefit of it is performance management. It reduces the CPU load by reducing the framerate of background clients and managing their CPU distribution in a better way than windows does. It then hastens the alt-tab since it continue to render when inactive and gives you thumbnail views of the other clients ready to click on.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#513 - 2014-03-25 16:05:53 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
ImYourMom wrote:

In order to trigger any automation (muliple key strokes) you must do something 'manually'. No automation at all can take place unless physically someone does something, therefore the entire process is manual not automated

yes. This is partially definition of automation. It does not require AI or imply complete autonomous operation at all. Someone presses a button and a machine starts a complex or at least some operation, like iterating through number of eve clients and feeding them your input because you are too lazy or too convenient to do it by yourself.


Ok seriously now, do you honestly think it is reasonable to ask a person who is paying their subscription for say 10 accounts should have to use 10 screens, 10 keyboards, 10 mice? really?

Thats not reasonable is it.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#514 - 2014-03-25 16:10:13 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
yep, there is.
You really need to learn the actual meaning of that word in the technical sense.

Robert Caldera wrote:
no you dont. Isbox thing reads your input and feeds it forward. You are not interacting with all those clients.
No, I'm interacting with my controller which dumb broadcasts what I do to my destination applications. Broadcast != Automate.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#515 - 2014-03-25 16:15:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
But it does take direct user interaction. No task is performed without the user interacting.

no there is isbox inbetween. isboxed client has no direct interaction with the user.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Actually, you're more likely to mess up with ISboxer running, since it's a dumb broadcaster, not automation. It doesn't make any judgement about whether anything is in the right state, it just does exactly what you tell it to do, when you tell it, quite literally.

bots mess up too, so? Apparently people figured out how to setup isboxer for it to work properly, otherwise they wouldnt do it, right?

Lucas Kell wrote:

The main benefit of it is performance management. It reduces the CPU load by reducing the framerate of background clients and managing their CPU distribution in a better way than windows does. It then hastens the alt-tab since it continue to render when inactive and gives you thumbnail views of the other clients ready to click on.

no its a lie and you know it yourself. Main benefit is not controlling all 20 clients manually, because this would render many scenarios unrealistic and unmanagable.


ImYourMom wrote:
Ok seriously now, do you honestly think it is reasonable to ask a person who is paying their subscription for say 10 accounts should have to use 10 screens, 10 keyboards, 10 mice? really?

Thats not reasonable is it.

you dont need multiple screens or mices for manual multiboxing. however you shouldnt be able to control a fleet of alts with just 1 client.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#516 - 2014-03-25 16:17:09 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
You really need to learn the actual meaning of that word in the technical sense.

I know the meaning very well.

Lucas Kell wrote:
No, I'm interacting with my controller which dumb broadcasts what I do to my destination applications. Broadcast != Automate.

you control 1 eve client, some software reads your input and feeds it forward to another 10 clients which are basically detached from your physical control in the moment as they receive their input from some piece of tool which sits between them and you. This is why you need and use it, its whole intention and purpose.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#517 - 2014-03-25 16:21:57 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
But it does take direct user interaction. No task is performed without the user interacting.

no there is isbox inbetween. isboxed client has no direct interaction with the user.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Actually, you're more likely to mess up with ISboxer running, since it's a dumb broadcaster, not automation. It doesn't make any judgement about whether anything is in the right state, it just does exactly what you tell it to do, when you tell it, quite literally.

bots mess up too, so? Apparently people figured out how to setup isboxer for it to work properly, otherwise they wouldnt do it, right?

Lucas Kell wrote:

The main benefit of it is performance management. It reduces the CPU load by reducing the framerate of background clients and managing their CPU distribution in a better way than windows does. It then hastens the alt-tab since it continue to render when inactive and gives you thumbnail views of the other clients ready to click on.

no its a lie and you know it yourself. Main benefit is not controlling all 20 clients manually, because this would render many scenarios unrealistic and unmanagable.


ImYourMom wrote:
Ok seriously now, do you honestly think it is reasonable to ask a person who is paying their subscription for say 10 accounts should have to use 10 screens, 10 keyboards, 10 mice? really?

Thats not reasonable is it.

you dont need multiple screens or mices for manual multiboxing. however you shouldnt be able to control a fleet of alts with just 1 client.
Is there any point continuing to argue with you? You clearly have no knowledge of automation in general or ISBoxer specifically, and no matter what anyone says, it's all "LIES!" right? Tinfoil hattery at it's best.

I'm gonna be the bigger man here and walk away. Continue to believe whatever you want to believe. I'll continue to live in the real world where what you say isn't automatically right just because you say it. One day you'll grow up and realise that.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#518 - 2014-03-25 16:24:45 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
But it does take direct user interaction. No task is performed without the user interacting.

no there is isbox inbetween. isboxed client has no direct interaction with the user.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Actually, you're more likely to mess up with ISboxer running, since it's a dumb broadcaster, not automation. It doesn't make any judgement about whether anything is in the right state, it just does exactly what you tell it to do, when you tell it, quite literally.

bots mess up too, so? Apparently people figured out how to setup isboxer for it to work properly, otherwise they wouldnt do it, right?

Lucas Kell wrote:

The main benefit of it is performance management. It reduces the CPU load by reducing the framerate of background clients and managing their CPU distribution in a better way than windows does. It then hastens the alt-tab since it continue to render when inactive and gives you thumbnail views of the other clients ready to click on.

no its a lie and you know it yourself. Main benefit is not controlling all 20 clients manually, because this would render many scenarios unrealistic and unmanagable.


ImYourMom wrote:
Ok seriously now, do you honestly think it is reasonable to ask a person who is paying their subscription for say 10 accounts should have to use 10 screens, 10 keyboards, 10 mice? really?

Thats not reasonable is it.

you dont need multiple screens or mices for manual multiboxing. however you shouldnt be able to control a fleet of alts with just 1 client.





There you go you have just said it yourself, you shouldnt need to use multiple screens or mice (not mices!) thats exactly what IsBoxer does!

Otherwise how else are they going to do it? You can only get devices that allow you to plug in a keyboard and mice that control multiple machines, but you have to swich screens.

Please explain then how else can someone control 10 accounts at once?
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#519 - 2014-03-25 16:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Lucas Kell wrote:
[I'm gonna be the bigger man here and walk away. Continue to believe whatever you want to believe. I'll continue to live in the real world where what you say isn't automatically right just because you say it. One day you'll grow up and realise that.

good bye

ImYourMom wrote:


There you go you have just said it yourself, you shouldnt need to use multiple screens or mice (not mices!) thats exactly what IsBoxer does!

Otherwise how else are they going to do it? You can only get devices that allow you to plug in a keyboard and mice that control multiple machines, but you have to swich screens.

Please explain then how else can someone control 10 accounts at once?

I never stated you should not need. I stated "you dont need".
ever heard of alt tabbing? you can run 10 clients with just 1 screen 1 mouse and 1 keyboard perfectly fine.
More screens ofc have advantage, I got 3 screens setup for example. If you like isboxer for the mere purpose of managing screens, its fine too. What is not fine is input broadcast since it implements automation and allows you to control a fleet of alts simultanously, which you wouldnt even be able to do with 10 screens alone, simply because handling that would exceed human capabilities - this is why people use it in first line.
No 3rd party tool or method should be allowed to maintain uberhuman gameplay by automating.
Sadly, they are allowed, for money and revenue, despite EULA hypocritically saying otherwise.
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#520 - 2014-03-25 16:48:46 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
[I'm gonna be the bigger man here and walk away. Continue to believe whatever you want to believe. I'll continue to live in the real world where what you say isn't automatically right just because you say it. One day you'll grow up and realise that.

good bye

ImYourMom wrote:


There you go you have just said it yourself, you shouldnt need to use multiple screens or mice (not mices!) thats exactly what IsBoxer does!

Otherwise how else are they going to do it? You can only get devices that allow you to plug in a keyboard and mice that control multiple machines, but you have to swich screens.

Please explain then how else can someone control 10 accounts at once?

I never stated you should not need. I stated "you dont need".
ever heard of alt tabbing? you can run 10 clients with just 1 screen 1 mouse and 1 keyboard perfectly fine.
More screens ofc have advantage, I got 3 screens setup for example. If you like isboxer for the mere purpose of managing screens, its fine too. What is not fine is input broadcast since it implements automation and allows you to control a fleet of alts simultanously, which you wouldnt even be able to do with 10 screens alone, simply because handling that would exceed human capabilities - this is why people use it in first line.
No 3rd party tool or method should be allowed to maintain uberhuman gameplay by automating.
Sadly, they are allowed, for money and revenue, despite EULA hypocritically saying otherwise.


Alt tabbing ?? are you absolutely mental? have you even tried it? doing it with 2 clients is a pain, try doing it with 10! jesus really.

You would also need a super computer to run 10 clients on one machine. I have to stop responding to our posts now because your thinking is just way off the scale