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Compreassing Array and the Rorqual some thoughts

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Author
Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-03-22 18:30:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nex Killer
A little bit about myself before I start. I’m a multiboxer with about 20 accounts, I do a lot of mining and industry with all my accounts. With all that going on I do a lot of ice compressing in my Rorqual so I can move a crap ton of the ice form null to highsec to refine and sell. I don’t understand CCPs logic with some parts of the reprocessing blog. I do like most of it but I do have one bone to pick with it and one bone is the compressing array for PoS.

I don’t understand the logic behind the making of the compressing array at all, the reason they said is because the Rorqual can’t enter highsec and compress. Yes that is one flaw to the Rorqual, but why not make the Orca into a mini Rorqual and let it compress? They could easily make it so the Industrial Core is an optional train just like the Clone Vat Bay is to the Rorqual and Titans. I mean come on the model is already setup for the Industrial Core.

The biggest problem I have with the compressing array is it instantly compressing the ore/ice and not using any fuel to do so. Nothing in life is instant not even an instant cup of noodles; you still have to wait for your water to warm and then after you pour the hot warm into the cup it has to cool. The same goes for this new compressing array, it should take time to compress 20M m3 of ore/ice. As of right now it takes 2 hours 44 minutes to compress 250 ice block with a researched BPO with 8 PL. To keep the Rorqual relevant they should make it so the compressing array takes long to compress then the Rorqual, like let’s say to compress 250 blocks of ice in the Rorqual it would take an hour but for the compressing array it would take 2 hours. This could give them a good reason to create an Industrial Core II, making it so the IC2 makes the Rorqual compress even faster, so that 250 blocks of ice only take 30 minutes and not an hour. This would give people a reason to buy Rorqual and use them. The last thing is compressing array not using any fuel, it should use a fuel for compressing. It should be like the Jump Bridges and how they use Ozone to run. Maybe just keep it the same as the Rorqual and use heavy water when it’s compressing.

If the compressing array comes out as it is now in the summer time I don’t see what they could even do with the Rorqual to make it viable other than a boosting rock or a poor man’s JF. I can’t see it being turned into a combat ship or anything else. I would really like to see CCPs reasoning behind this update because I really don’t see it. Yes I know their changing scrap metal reprocessing so it going to be harder to move large amounts of materials and I like that. But I don’t see why come out with something new when you could already just make a few changes to something already in game. Like making an Orca into a mini Rorqual and let it compress ore/ice or keep the compressing array but let the Rorqual and the new Orca compress faster than it. What do you guys think?
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-03-22 18:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
The Rorq's compression is also going to be instant. To quote from the dev blog:

Quote:
From now on, when working with the Rorqual or the Compression Array, players will be able to right-click the ores or ices they wish to compress to immediately get the output.

Also, we do know the Rorqual needs more love to be a more viable ship, and that is being looked into, but chances are this won’t make it in EVE’s summer expansion.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2014-03-22 19:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Elena Thiesant wrote:
The Rorq's compression is also going to be instant.

As a Rorqual owner myself, I find it really hard to get excited about that, though it will be an improvement. Ice was especially problematic.

We've already been dealing with compression runs taking on the order of 38 seconds (PL 24 + Industry 5), and the array will also be instant but hold a whopping 20,000,000 m3.

Random thoughts for the Rorqual:
* EWAR immunity.
* Industrial core cycle time reduced to one minute, like bastion. Heavy water usage reduction, or elimination.
* Extremely high structure resists while the core is active, like bastion mode. Structure-only to help avoid a Rorqual fleet doctrine. The idea being survivability long enough for support to arrive (=content creation).
* Bonus to local shield boosting amount and / or capacitor use reduction while the core is active.
* Expansion of the drone bay to fighter size - 1 m3, but no additional bandwidth.
* One additional drone (2?) per level of Capital Industrial skill.
* Expansion of the ore hold.
* Expansion of the ship hangar. Possibly allow non-industrial ships, but then a smaller size increase.
* Mining link bonus while the core is active, so that the Rorqual is on par with the Orca with the core inactive.
mup Deninard
mupcorp
#4 - 2014-03-22 20:00:28 UTC
Well I love the idea that the orca gets to compress. The orca's ore bay is way too small and feels less like a mining command ship and more like a jack of all trades master of nothing. This would solve many problems especially having to empty it often even with just 2 hulks.
Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-03-22 22:43:42 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
The Rorq's compression is also going to be instant. To quote from the dev blog:

Quote:
From now on, when working with the Rorqual or the Compression Array, players will be able to right-click the ores or ices they wish to compress to immediately get the output.

Also, we do know the Rorqual needs more love to be a more viable ship, and that is being looked into, but chances are this won’t make it in EVE’s summer expansion.


Yes I do know the Rorq going to become instant too. But I don't want to see that happen I would like it to still keep the time needed for it to compress, but compress faster than the compressing array. So there would be a reason to use the Rorq other then using it as a boosting rock.

Tau Cabalander wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
The Rorq's compression is also going to be instant.

As a Rorqual owner myself, I find it really hard to get excited about that, though it will be an improvement. Ice was especially problematic.

We've already been dealing with compression runs taking on the order of 38 seconds (PL 24 + Industry 5), and the array will also be instant but hold a whopping 20,000,000 m3.

Random thoughts for the Rorqual:
* EWAR immunity.
* Industrial core cycle time reduced to one minute, like bastion. Heavy water usage reduction, or elimination.
* Extremely high structure resists while the core is active, like bastion mode. Structure-only to help avoid a Rorqual fleet doctrine. The idea being survivability long enough for support to arrive (=content creation).
* Bonus to local shield boosting amount and / or capacitor use reduction while the core is active.
* Expansion of the drone bay to fighter size - 1 m3, but no additional bandwidth.
* One additional drone (2?) per level of Capital Industrial skill.
* Expansion of the ore hold.
* Expansion of the ship hangar. Possibly allow non-industrial ships, but then a smaller size increase.
* Mining link bonus while the core is active, so that the Rorqual is on par with the Orca with the core inactive.


I won't mine seeing the mining link bonus to be on par with the Orca when the core isn't on. The expansion on ore hold and ship hanger wouldn't be bad too. But I just don't see it becoming a combat ship at all because even in the description it says: "To that end, the Rorqual's primary strength lies in its ability to grind raw ores into particles of smaller size than possible before, while still maintaining their distinctive molecular structure. This means the vessel is able to carry vast amounts of ore in compressed form." With this update the compressing array is just spitting into the face Rorqual and it's lore. The only thing I can think of is their going to change the Rorqual into frontier ship that is going to be used with this new space everyone is talking about or player built star gates.

I always like reading your posts Tau Cabalander for insight on things and would love to hear more what you think.


mup Deninard wrote:
Well I love the idea that the orca gets to compress. The orca's ore bay is way too small and feels less like a mining command ship and more like a jack of all trades master of nothing. This would solve many problems especially having to empty it often even with just 2 hulks.


Yes the Orca ore hold is overshadowed by the Miasmos and shouldn't be. I wouldn't mine seeing the Orca ore hold boosted to 125k m3 to be half of what the Rorqual is. Right now you can run *going back to ice on this* 4 compressing jobs at once, so that is 1k blocks of ice compressed an hour. With the Orca getting a 125k m3 hold it could do 500 blocks an hour thus making it into a mini Rorqual.
Aker Krane
OMEGADYNE LABS
Rising Darkness
#6 - 2014-03-22 23:16:16 UTC
A possible use for the Rorqual post patch will be for moving all that compressed ore.
A Glorified Hauler.
250,000 M3 + 30,000 Fleet Hanger + 40,000 Cargo Bay (that can be significantly expanded if desired, or modified by its slots/rigs etc).
Significant capacity for ore based products.
Half the cost of a jump freighter.
Obviously, it cannot make pickups in HS....and it is not the best use of such an asset...
Given the right logistics support it could be an interesting long haul alternative
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2014-03-22 23:17:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Nex Killer wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Random thoughts for the Rorqual:
* EWAR immunity.
* Industrial core cycle time reduced to one minute, like bastion. Heavy water usage reduction, or elimination.
* Extremely high structure resists while the core is active, like bastion mode. Structure-only to help avoid a Rorqual fleet doctrine. The idea being survivability long enough for support to arrive (=content creation).
* Bonus to local shield boosting amount and / or capacitor use reduction while the core is active.
* Expansion of the drone bay to fighter size - 1 m3, but no additional bandwidth.
* One additional drone (2?) per level of Capital Industrial skill.
* Expansion of the ore hold.
* Expansion of the ship hangar. Possibly allow non-industrial ships, but then a smaller size increase.
* Mining link bonus while the core is active, so that the Rorqual is on par with the Orca with the core inactive.

I won't mine seeing the mining link bonus to be on par with the Orca when the core isn't on. The expansion on ore hold and ship hanger wouldn't be bad too. But I just don't see it becoming a combat ship at all because even in the description it says: "To that end, the Rorqual's primary strength lies in its ability to grind raw ores into particles of smaller size than possible before, while still maintaining their distinctive molecular structure. This means the vessel is able to carry vast amounts of ore in compressed form." With this update the compressing array is just spitting into the face Rorqual and it's lore.

My idea with the increased drone bay size and extra drones is to not make the Rorqual a combat ship, but rather to improve upon its role as a mining support vessel. Being able to handle triple battleship NPC spawns and their escorts, as well as protect miners from them seem like a requirement, and I think this may have been CCP's intention. The Rorqual should also be able to dissuade a certain amount of player attacks, especially light tackle; it is a capital after all.

Right now, it is way too easy to kill its drones, leaving it completely toothless. Hence it needs a larger drone bay. I don't think it needs to be carrier-sized (I could be wrong), but it should be significant. Hence fighter-sized - 1 m3.

The increased drone deployment is to counter the DPS escalation ships have seen since the Rorqual was introduced. It still would be no threat to even a lone carrier.

I also would hope the Rorqual could be single DD-proof, so that all too common drive-by titans would have to chew on it a while. Making it a huge structure tank seems the most logical approach, otherwise its excessive durability might be exploited in doctrine fleets.

There has to be a reasonable amount of defense to justify a Rorqual outside a force field
Nex Killer wrote:
The only thing I can think of is their going to change the Rorqual into frontier ship that is going to be used with this new space everyone is talking about or player built star gates.

I don't think a ship based on mining would be a good choice for that. However, I could imagine more SoE ships. Maybe even Interbus.

Nex Killer wrote:
I always like reading your posts Tau Cabalander for insight on things and would love to hear more what you think.

Thanks. Bear
Dave Stark
#8 - 2014-03-23 06:44:33 UTC
Nex Killer wrote:
Yes the Orca ore hold is overshadowed by the Miasmos and shouldn't be. I wouldn't mine seeing the Orca ore hold boosted to 125k m3 to be half of what the Rorqual is. Right now you can run *going back to ice on this* 4 compressing jobs at once, so that is 1k blocks of ice compressed an hour. With the Orca getting a 125k m3 hold it could do 500 blocks an hour thus making it into a mini Rorqual.


considering the orca also has a fleet hangar, and regular cargo bays... i don't really think it's an issue that the miasmos has a slightly bigger ore bay.

even unexpanded the orca has nearly twice the capacity for ore that the miasmos has, along with a lot more ehp and a ship maintenance bay.
Oxide Ammar
#9 - 2014-03-23 07:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
If CCP removed the heavy water price tag from compressing in rorqual, will that make heavy water a redundant wasted mat that no one use in game at all ?

Edit: Unless CCP introduced Heavy Water Bay In POS tower or the compression array , and we can call it even between rorqual and compression array in POS.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-03-23 09:49:22 UTC
It's a component of fuel blocks, so would still be used.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#11 - 2014-03-23 17:28:54 UTC
20 accounts multiboxing?
why?
what's the point? ain't this a game? shouldn't you enjoy and try to achieve stuff instead of hoarding isks?
Sounds totally excessive to me... I heard about 3-4 alts setup (ok I guess) but 20? wtf? :X
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#12 - 2014-03-24 05:07:16 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
20 accounts multiboxing?
why?
what's the point? ain't this a game? shouldn't you enjoy and try to achieve stuff instead of hoarding isks?
Sounds totally excessive to me... I heard about 3-4 alts setup (ok I guess) but 20? wtf? :X



Because 20 is more efficient and requires the same effort as 3-4 to maintain (for a good setup).
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#13 - 2014-03-25 00:33:15 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
20 accounts multiboxing?
why?
what's the point? ain't this a game? shouldn't you enjoy and try to achieve stuff instead of hoarding isks?
Sounds totally excessive to me... I heard about 3-4 alts setup (ok I guess) but 20? wtf? :X

well there was that guy that mined with isboxer and 75 accounts.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#14 - 2014-03-25 04:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
well there was that guy that mined with isboxer and 75 accounts.

97 Account Multiboxing. Better Believe It.

Another is Zhek Kromtor: https://sites.google.com/site/khromtor/

The Bloodtears are also famous for their two-man run multiboxing fleets.
Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-03-25 07:29:56 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
If CCP removed the heavy water price tag from compressing in rorqual, will that make heavy water a redundant wasted mat that no one use in game at all ?

Edit: Unless CCP introduced Heavy Water Bay In POS tower or the compression array , and we can call it even between rorqual and compression array in POS.


The only other thing that comes into mind that uses heavy water is fuel blocks. They could easily make the compression array use heavy water. Just like how the Jump Bridge PoS mod uses both PoS CPU/Power and Liquid Ozone to work. Plus with it using heavy water we'll see a nice price increase of heavy water.

Elena Thiesant wrote:
It's a component of fuel blocks, so would still be used.


Yes but that is all its used for. If Ozone wasn't used in the Jump Bridge PoS mod and only for cynos it would be 100x cheaper.

Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
20 accounts multiboxing?
why?
what's the point? ain't this a game? shouldn't you enjoy and try to achieve stuff instead of hoarding isks?
Sounds totally excessive to me... I heard about 3-4 alts setup (ok I guess) but 20? wtf? :X


I enjoy it :> I do PvP with them a lot too. Some people like to see 20 of my vexors coming into a system for a fight :D
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-03-25 18:39:09 UTC
Aker Krane wrote:
A possible use for the Rorqual post patch will be for moving all that compressed ore.
A Glorified Hauler.
250,000 M3 + 30,000 Fleet Hanger + 40,000 Cargo Bay (that can be significantly expanded if desired, or modified by its slots/rigs etc).
Significant capacity for ore based products.
Half the cost of a jump freighter.
Obviously, it cannot make pickups in HS....and it is not the best use of such an asset...
Given the right logistics support it could be an interesting long haul alternative



It wouldn't be used for that at all, why even bother when you can just use a Rhea, with Caldari Freighter V you have just shy of 368k m3, a fuel bay that can store 66k topes.

With JFC V, JDC V, and JF V, you can easily go from one side of the eve universe to the other with out the need to refuel.

Oh, and it can also go into high sec and you can jump strait from Jita to low sec and completely avoid any suicide ganks. After this change, the Rorqual will see zero use. POS in high-sec to compress ore, and then just trade it to your JF pilot.
mup Deninard
mupcorp
#17 - 2014-03-25 19:19:17 UTC
Just wondering but will the price of minerals drop and compressed ore become king? My concern is unless npc stations allow compression I will loose out. Currently I have perfect refine, this effectively compresses the ore and allows me to red frog it to the best market. If compressed ore becomes king and I can't compress directly then that adds middle men who all want their piece of the pie. Sending uncompressed ore large distances is madness and so unless I spend time shifting it myself (loosing out on mining time) I will be at the mercy of those who have the time and isk to set up poses in local . Am I worried for no good reason?
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
#18 - 2014-03-25 19:48:50 UTC
mup Deninard wrote:
Just wondering but will the price of minerals drop and compressed ore become king? My concern is unless npc stations allow compression I will loose out. Currently I have perfect refine, this effectively compresses the ore and allows me to red frog it to the best market. If compressed ore becomes king and I can't compress directly then that adds middle men who all want their piece of the pie. Sending uncompressed ore large distances is madness and so unless I spend time shifting it myself (loosing out on mining time) I will be at the mercy of those who have the time and isk to set up poses in local . Am I worried for no good reason?



Not sure how that will effect anything. At the end of the day people will need minerals. So if you have excellent refining skills those skills will still be useful.
Malcolm Lionel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-03-25 19:58:46 UTC
I agree there should be some time investment in compressing, skills should matter to.
Lucius Saturninus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-03-29 01:11:12 UTC
Please join my discussion also: Save The Rorqual
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