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Solo PVP among larger class ships?

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#221 - 2014-03-19 20:38:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Battleships would never be used as heavy tackle with 200mm base scan res because there are better options in the cruiser class with much higher locking times.


Cruisers back then would squish very easily, there was no such thing as a heavy cruiser.
Infinity Ziona wrote:

200mm is not the locking time of a cruiser. Its less then the locking time of a battlecruiser. You don't need the scan res of a cruiser to lock a cruiser before it can warp out you need the locking time of a battlecruiser which is more than I'm proposing.


Those times you put down for a cruiser to align and warp are not the times you will find in game.
Infinity Ziona wrote:

I don't care about your fleets because only a very small proportion of people engage in fleet warfare and there are lots of options available for fleets to tackle with. Pretending you couldn't scram a +2 battleship is just terrible. If you guys have trouble putting 3 points on a battleship then its not the game mechanics that are to blame. There are plenty of +3 scrams now and there are long range HICS, Arazu, bubbles, dictors....


And this just shows how little you know about fleet fights. Right now its one point per ship, now double the points needed on each ship, now triple it. Your idea would have a massive impact on fleet fights and would make BS fleets much harder to pin down. But you don't care about the group of players who engage in the most PVP by far.

I have no idea what your first comment is about...

The times I put down are spot on.

I don't care about the small amount of people who very rarely get into blobby consensual pvp against each other. This is not a consensual pvp game.

Right now doesn't matter, its been proven time and time again over the years, EVE changes and people have to adapt, I adapted by not using battleships anymore, I'm sure you could adapt too. You may have to use more points...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Clementina
University of Caille
#222 - 2014-03-19 21:27:52 UTC
The first use of the phrase "solo pwnmobile" was in 2005 In a response by the developer Oveur to a player requesting cruiser and frigate sized weapons for their battleship. You can see the thread and the response Here.

Basically battleships intentionally have weaknesses to smaller vessels. This has been CCP philosophy for 8.5 years as of this posting.
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-03-19 21:42:12 UTC
Clementina wrote:
The first use of the phrase "solo pwnmobile" was in 2005 In a response by the developer Oveur to a player requesting cruiser and frigate sized weapons for their battleship. You can see the thread and the response Here.

Basically battleships intentionally have weaknesses to smaller vessels. This has been CCP philosophy for 8.5 years as of this posting.


Dev post said to fly with a friend. I was supposed to have friends as far back as 2005?! Cry

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#224 - 2014-03-19 21:50:24 UTC
So... reading the last several pages here. It's good to see you finally admit that you're an EFT warrior, Infinity. It explains so very much.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#225 - 2014-03-19 22:10:53 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
The Rapid Launchers were nerfed into oblivion and some potentially interesting fits for BC and BS and new situations around those fits were snatched away, like a hot tub dream ending just at the point something starts to happen.

Sadly, yes... Added to this is the fact that none of the battlecruiser and only a handful of battleship hulls bonus rapid light and rapid heavy launchers. I did have an interesting solo skirmish in a Raven not that long ago against a Harbinger, Rupture, Caracal, Jaguar, Dragoon, Corax and Kestrel. I managed to take out the Harbinger, Dragoon and Corax - but it was 7:1. Much fun was had by all - especially me (even though I lost). If I'd had original proposed rapid heavy launchers and some of the changes we're talking about it would've been a lot closer (or I'd have had the option to extricate myself).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#226 - 2014-03-19 22:13:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Because Battleships were changed for a reason (lol, just like Timers and everything else you think should be changed because you do't personally like it), to kill of the pre-2007 "solopwnmobiles". That's where the term solopwnmobile comes from IMO.

Battleships are perfect for their roles (Core Fleet Combat ships0 without overstepping the roles of smaller ships. As it should be, as CCP made it in 2007 after years of "make it to where you can fly and afford a BS, forget everything else..

The resistance to what you want comes from people not being short sighted and selfish about the needs of the game. Making Battleships in any way better for "solo" work (thus encroaching on smaller ships roles) is bad for the game. Any change to battleship class ships should be aimed at making them better Fleet ships. Period.

The only thing a Battleship should be able to solo is a single other player battleship....or a lvl 4 mission.

I couldn't disagree more with everything you've said.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#227 - 2014-03-20 10:58:11 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Because Battleships were changed for a reason (lol, just like Timers and everything else you think should be changed because you do't personally like it), to kill of the pre-2007 "solopwnmobiles". That's where the term solopwnmobile comes from IMO.

Battleships are perfect for their roles (Core Fleet Combat ships0 without overstepping the roles of smaller ships. As it should be, as CCP made it in 2007 after years of "make it to where you can fly and afford a BS, forget everything else..

The resistance to what you want comes from people not being short sighted and selfish about the needs of the game. Making Battleships in any way better for "solo" work (thus encroaching on smaller ships roles) is bad for the game. Any change to battleship class ships should be aimed at making them better Fleet ships. Period.

The only thing a Battleship should be able to solo is a single other player battleship....or a lvl 4 mission.

I couldn't disagree more with everything you've said.

Yeah I agree with you.

Basically no one has provided a good reason why one class of subcapital out of all the numerous subcapitals in the game should be incapable of engaging in PvP solo or roaming with small gangs.

The arguments put forward, that battleships should only be used or that CCP intended that they only be used for fleet activities has no reasonable explanation and does not gel with the story of battleships in EvE's history.

There is also no explanation of why if "battleships should only be used for fleet work", CCP implemented Marauders and Blops which are primarily used, and used with great effect in solo and small gang pwnage.

The primary question I would ask for those detractors to answer is why battleships should not be used in solo small gang when there are significantly more powerful ships, both generic (T3) and specifically designed for fleet work ships (curse, pilgrim, rapier) that are used on a daily basis for solo and small gang work.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kyperion
#228 - 2014-03-20 11:11:40 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Because Battleships were changed for a reason (lol, just like Timers and everything else you think should be changed because you do't personally like it), to kill of the pre-2007 "solopwnmobiles". That's where the term solopwnmobile comes from IMO.

Battleships are perfect for their roles (Core Fleet Combat ships0 without overstepping the roles of smaller ships. As it should be, as CCP made it in 2007 after years of "make it to where you can fly and afford a BS, forget everything else..

The resistance to what you want comes from people not being short sighted and selfish about the needs of the game. Making Battleships in any way better for "solo" work (thus encroaching on smaller ships roles) is bad for the game. Any change to battleship class ships should be aimed at making them better Fleet ships. Period.

The only thing a Battleship should be able to solo is a single other player battleship....or a lvl 4 mission.

I couldn't disagree more with everything you've said.

Yeah I agree with you.

Basically no one has provided a good reason why one class of subcapital out of all the numerous subcapitals in the game should be incapable of engaging in PvP solo or roaming with small gangs.

The arguments put forward, that battleships should only be used or that CCP intended that they only be used for fleet activities has no reasonable explanation and does not gel with the story of battleships in EvE's history.

There is also no explanation of why if "battleships should only be used for fleet work", CCP implemented Marauders and Blops which are primarily used, and used with great effect in solo and small gang pwnage.

The primary question I would ask for those detractors to answer is why battleships should not be used in solo small gang when there are significantly more powerful ships, both generic (T3) and specifically designed for fleet work ships (curse, pilgrim, rapier) that are used on a daily basis for solo and small gang work.


Really the whole game needs a rebalance toward solo and small group (2-4 man) fights. Probably should scale back the ease of escalation a little bit.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#229 - 2014-03-20 11:21:20 UTC
Kyperion wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Because Battleships were changed for a reason (lol, just like Timers and everything else you think should be changed because you do't personally like it), to kill of the pre-2007 "solopwnmobiles". That's where the term solopwnmobile comes from IMO.

Battleships are perfect for their roles (Core Fleet Combat ships0 without overstepping the roles of smaller ships. As it should be, as CCP made it in 2007 after years of "make it to where you can fly and afford a BS, forget everything else..

The resistance to what you want comes from people not being short sighted and selfish about the needs of the game. Making Battleships in any way better for "solo" work (thus encroaching on smaller ships roles) is bad for the game. Any change to battleship class ships should be aimed at making them better Fleet ships. Period.

The only thing a Battleship should be able to solo is a single other player battleship....or a lvl 4 mission.

I couldn't disagree more with everything you've said.

Yeah I agree with you.

Basically no one has provided a good reason why one class of subcapital out of all the numerous subcapitals in the game should be incapable of engaging in PvP solo or roaming with small gangs.

The arguments put forward, that battleships should only be used or that CCP intended that they only be used for fleet activities has no reasonable explanation and does not gel with the story of battleships in EvE's history.

There is also no explanation of why if "battleships should only be used for fleet work", CCP implemented Marauders and Blops which are primarily used, and used with great effect in solo and small gang pwnage.

The primary question I would ask for those detractors to answer is why battleships should not be used in solo small gang when there are significantly more powerful ships, both generic (T3) and specifically designed for fleet work ships (curse, pilgrim, rapier) that are used on a daily basis for solo and small gang work.


Really the whole game needs a rebalance toward solo and small group (2-4 man) fights. Probably should scale back the ease of escalation a little bit.

Yeah I agree. Cyno gens essentially turn any ship in EvE into a highly agile potentially covert ops carrier but with a potential to hold 250+ ships in its hanger bay and deploy them faster than it takes to warp from a safespot. I miss the fights we used to have in low and null where you were able to engage more often and more confidently the ships in local. There were more and better fights.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
cpt Mark
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#230 - 2014-03-20 11:22:52 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Cruisers yes. That is a common solo PvP class of shop.

Above that less so but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


I would say cruiser solo PvP is more common that destroyer solo PvP, but don't have figures to back that up.


get that scam site out your signature
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#231 - 2014-03-20 11:51:53 UTC
Kyperion wrote:


Really the whole game needs a rebalance toward solo and small group (2-4 man) fights. Probably should scale back the ease of escalation a little bit.


The increased subscription numbers alone since the game's launch are a big part of why "small group" fights have died off.

Because there literally are more people living in each area now. And since this is a single shard game with hands off player interspersement, that basically means that it's on you to find fights of a size you agree with.

Oh, and btw, for anyone who really wants life without cynos, go live in a wormhole, that's what it's for. If you have such an issue with power projection, then that's the space you should be in.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#232 - 2014-03-20 11:54:07 UTC
cpt Mark wrote:
get that scam site out your signature

Ho hum. It's not a scam site in my experience. YMMV.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#233 - 2014-03-20 12:05:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kyperion wrote:


Really the whole game needs a rebalance toward solo and small group (2-4 man) fights. Probably should scale back the ease of escalation a little bit.


The increased subscription numbers alone since the game's launch are a big part of why "small group" fights have died off.

Because there literally are more people living in each area now. And since this is a single shard game with hands off player interspersement, that basically means that it's on you to find fights of a size you agree with.

Oh, and btw, for anyone who really wants life without cynos, go live in a wormhole, that's what it's for. If you have such an issue with power projection, then that's the space you should be in.

Or they could balance cynos.

If anyone suggest a covert ops frigate or cruiser that had a ship hanger capable of holding up to 250 titans + it's pilots cloaked in local which it could deploy instantly on top of a target it would be shot down as game breaking.

That's essentially what a cyno does for a ship, turn it into the most uber carrier in the game for a fuel cost of 500k isk and less CPU and power grid than an improved cloak.

This is why in my area we have had up to 7 cloaking cynos at once in surrounding systems and BLOP's x5 to x7 dropping on stuff as stupid as a cheetah.


There is such a thing as too easy, too imbalanced and totally broken.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#234 - 2014-03-20 12:12:11 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kyperion wrote:


Really the whole game needs a rebalance toward solo and small group (2-4 man) fights. Probably should scale back the ease of escalation a little bit.


The increased subscription numbers alone since the game's launch are a big part of why "small group" fights have died off.

Because there literally are more people living in each area now. And since this is a single shard game with hands off player interspersement, that basically means that it's on you to find fights of a size you agree with.

Oh, and btw, for anyone who really wants life without cynos, go live in a wormhole, that's what it's for. If you have such an issue with power projection, then that's the space you should be in.

Or they could balance cynos.

If anyone suggest a covert ops frigate or cruiser that had a ship hanger capable of holding up to 250 titans + it's pilots cloaked in local which it could deploy instantly on top of a target it would be shot down as game breaking.

That's essentially what a cyno does for a ship, turn it into the most uber carrier in the game for a fuel cost of 500k isk and less CPU and power grid than an improved cloak.

This is why in my area we have had up to 7 cloaking cynos at once in surrounding systems and BLOP's x5 to x7 dropping on stuff as stupid as a cheetah.


There is such a thing as too easy, too imbalanced and totally broken.


Cynos are fine, you just don't have any friends. That's your only real complaint, that other people have more blues than you.

Grr, Goons.

My point still stands. What you want out of nullsec, is actually wormhole space.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Agamemna Sheridan
Wombo United
#235 - 2014-03-20 12:38:08 UTC
Dont nail me on this. Im not that mutch pvp experianced.

I find its completely ok for a BS to be unable to kill a frig and for a single frig to be unable to kill a BS.

However, while the frig can evade the BS, the BS can not evade the frig. Even the BS pilot took the risk of taking out a mutch more expensive ship, he can be held down by a single ship worth a fraction of his own.

I think they would need to find a solution for this.

Maybe by splitting up the points/scrams and webs into Small, Medium and Large. Each most effective in their own "weight class" but mutch less effective against larger ships (due to mass) or against smaller ships (due to sig radius). Just like weapons are.

That would also give the oportunity to have individual ranges for the different type ranges like 30km for a BS web, 20km for a cruser Web and 10km for a frig web (just random numbers)

But I cant tell if this would break everything or would actually work.

Just my 2 cents.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#236 - 2014-03-20 14:35:38 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
stuff

been a good read, Imo battleships are fine

and Marauders are Soooooo battleships, the same as strategic cruisers are in fact, as the name implies , cruisers

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#237 - 2014-03-20 15:15:08 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kyperion wrote:


Really the whole game needs a rebalance toward solo and small group (2-4 man) fights. Probably should scale back the ease of escalation a little bit.


The increased subscription numbers alone since the game's launch are a big part of why "small group" fights have died off.

Because there literally are more people living in each area now. And since this is a single shard game with hands off player interspersement, that basically means that it's on you to find fights of a size you agree with.

Oh, and btw, for anyone who really wants life without cynos, go live in a wormhole, that's what it's for. If you have such an issue with power projection, then that's the space you should be in.



There goes Kaarous again, offering solutions to someone who doesn't want solutuions, but rather wants CCP to manipulte the game in such a way that ensures he wins. Because thats what's at the heart of everything Infiinty Ziona posts, I noticed that the very 1st time he posted about wanting local nerfed because local prevented him from sneaking up on people (his words).
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2014-03-20 15:36:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

I can already get a battleship to warp as fast as assualt frigates, make them faster and it will be even easier to out warp the other ships. This means you can land battleship fleets in the same time as cruisers and not sacrifice very much if anything.

Will such BS do any meaningful DPS? WIll it have any meaningful tank? If so any details please?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#239 - 2014-03-20 17:20:20 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

I can already get a battleship to warp as fast as assualt frigates, make them faster and it will be even easier to out warp the other ships. This means you can land battleship fleets in the same time as cruisers and not sacrifice very much if anything.

Will such BS do any meaningful DPS? WIll it have any meaningful tank? If so any details please?


Yes to both.

I never fly a mega in any fleet if it would be a liability to the fleet or cannot at the very least match what the ships in that fleet do. The firepower and tank are both much higher than the other ships plus I always bring a flight of armour drones which come in handy when in shield fleets. The new structure drones are a great little tool and the tackle frigs love me for it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#240 - 2014-03-20 17:21:37 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

I have no idea what your first comment is about...



As a 2003 player you should.