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Senate Subcommittee claims "Culture of Secrecy at the Black Eagles"

Author
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#41 - 2014-03-19 12:31:37 UTC
What revelations will we be treated to next? Strong anti-Imperial sentiment among the Tribal Liberation Force? Members of the Theology Council consider religion "very relevant" to their jobs?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Cuci Cairi
#42 - 2014-03-19 13:27:17 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

And you have to ask, why would these people start rumors in the first place? They're identities are hidden. Agent Mornay is just a pseudonym and most defectors don't even give a false name. Clearly they are not trying to gain popularity or money from these stories. So the only other reason they would start talking is because their stories might have some merit.


There is no sense in speculation without facts. They could have an axe to grind. They could have largely been made up by the journalists. They could have some merit. There is no way of knowing, and speculating about it is useless.

Fredfredbug4 wrote:

Are you not a little concerned that their power could be abused? How long will it take before being "a threat to the Federation" moves into supporting differing political parties? Saying "seditious" things? Hell it's probably started already. I used to be a staunch supporter of the Black Eagles, but then I started to think about an old and ancient totem.

"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither"

What's the point of defending ourselves from an enemy, if we become our own enemy?


Again, this is nothing but fear-mongering. You have no evidence for any of your claims or concerns. They are pure hypotheticals aimed to give credence to slippery slope arguments.

And as for your banal aphorism: get better totems. Don't live by soundbites.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#43 - 2014-03-19 13:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Noden Vorpalstar
The bottom line is unwarranted speculation and fear mongering does no service to anyone.
There is no evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that our intelligence services have subverted freedom, or attempted to do so.
The nature of their activities are on the vanguard of the defense of our Federation.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#44 - 2014-03-19 13:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jennifer Maxwell
I never said that they didn't have agendas behind them. I just said watch the news; you'll see enough when the stuff behind the curtains start blowing up, literally and figuratively.

And no, I'm not relying on the news. I spent eight years serving as an intelligence officer and counterintelligence officer for both Ishukone Watch and Caldary Navy before becoming a capsuleer. I know what the Black Eagles are doing not only because I worked on teams working in opposition to the Gallente but I also had the access to files on their histories and the things they've done around the State and the Federation. They're in the Republic and Empire also; every hole in security they find they'll slither into and try to exploit.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#45 - 2014-03-19 13:57:22 UTC
Straton Technos wrote:

Our way of life, and in order to continue to be Champions Of Freedom and Democracy depend on these types of organizations.

And this is why the Federation must be destroyed.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#46 - 2014-03-19 14:00:15 UTC
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
The bottom line is unwarranted speculation and fear mongering does no service to anyone.
There is no evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that our intelligence services have subverted freedom, or attempted to do so.
The nature of their activities are on the vanguard of the defense of our Federation.

Who is afraid of these Black Eagles anyway?
You see one - you kill one. Problem solved.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Cuci Cairi
#47 - 2014-03-19 14:11:53 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
I never said that they didn't have agendas behind them. I just said watch the news; you'll see enough when the stuff behind the curtains start blowing up, literally and figuratively.

And no, I'm not relying on the news. I spent eight years serving as an intelligence officer and counterintelligence officer for both Ishukone Watch and Caldary Navy before becoming a capsuleer. I know what the Black Eagles are doing not only because I worked on teams working in opposition to the Gallente but I also had the access to files on their histories and the things they've done around the State and the Federation. They're in the Republic and Empire also; every hole in security they find they'll slither into and try to exploit.


You'll forgive us if we don't just take your word for such things. I assume you expected that.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-03-19 15:19:51 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
They're in the Republic and Empire also; every hole in security they find they'll slither into and try to exploit.

To be fair, any intelligence agency in any empire (or corporation for that matter) that isn't doing this is bad at their job.
Anslo
Scope Works
#49 - 2014-03-19 16:08:23 UTC
Seriously, the amount of sheepsuleers bleating about no evidence this, axe to grind that. In all seriousness, **** is sketchy, plain and simple. Fred is right, there's possibility for abuse here. Probably already occure. But you kids keep bleating in favor of these creeps. Nothing like blindly following authority without so much as questioning them on a damn thing.

They know what's best for us, right?...Guys?...

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-03-19 16:39:02 UTC
Wether or not there is evidence that it happened is irrelevant. The very notion that it could happen should be enough for concern. The fact that so many people are content with "Nothing to see hear! Move along!" as the official answer to these issues is absolutely horrifying.

Look at what happened in the State. The Provist were hailed as heroes! By the time the Caldari people realized they were anything but heroes, protestors were being gunned down, political adversaries were vanishing, and the media was completely Provist controlled.

"But the Caldari kicked them out eventually! We'll do the same if the Black Eagles get abusive!" You begin typing, thinking you've turned my argument around. No.

The Caldari think differently than us. As long as the beer keeps flowing and the strippers keep dancing, the fickle Gallente people will neither notice nor care.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#51 - 2014-03-19 16:42:11 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

Look at what happened in the State. The Provist were hailed as heroes! By the time the Caldari people realized they were anything but heroes, protestors were being gunned down, political adversaries were vanishing, and the media was completely Provist controlled.

I see jaijii still trying to poke his nose and speak about peoples of the State like he would understand them.
Stop your stupid lies!
Provists were, are and will be heroes of Caldari people forever, and their glory will live after your name will be long forgotten.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Cuci Cairi
#52 - 2014-03-19 17:00:55 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Wether or not there is evidence that it happened is irrelevant. The very notion that it could happen should be enough for concern. The fact that so many people are content with "Nothing to see hear! Move along!" as the official answer to these issues is absolutely horrifying.

Look at what happened in the State. The Provist were hailed as heroes! By the time the Caldari people realized they were anything but heroes, protestors were being gunned down, political adversaries were vanishing, and the media was completely Provist controlled.

"But the Caldari kicked them out eventually! We'll do the same if the Black Eagles get abusive!" You begin typing, thinking you've turned my argument around. No.

The Caldari think differently than us. As long as the beer keeps flowing and the strippers keep dancing, the fickle Gallente people will neither notice nor care.


Evidence is never irrelevant. You need information to have an opinion with any value. People are claiming that they have no accountability, but we do not know if they have accountability measures to the FIO, to the president, to certain senators - we simply don't know.

Lack of information does not justify jumping to conclusions let alone sounding alarms. Lack of public information is standard for every intelligence agency. Those sounding alarms are literally doing nothing more than hearing rumors and running with them without any justification whatsoever. If you are the one making claims, you need to back up those claims. Nobody is doing that. They are simply reciting platitudes and instilling fear based on rumors. Potential for abuse isn't evidence for abuse.

Lack of information is not cause for alarm. It is standard for certain types of agencies.
Anslo
Scope Works
#53 - 2014-03-19 17:05:24 UTC
Did they not teach you how to make an inference on things in school, kid? Or you just practicing while waiting for your cheerleader outfit to arrive?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Cuci Cairi
#54 - 2014-03-19 17:08:48 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Did they not teach you how to make an inference on things in school, kid? Or you just practicing while waiting for your cheerleader outfit to arrive?


in·fer·ence
noun
1.
a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning.


Try again.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-03-19 17:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Again, take the rumors and alleged reports for what you will. Whether you believe it or not. Whether there is a plentitude of evidence or none whatsoever. It doesn't matter.

No organization in the Federation should have the power to do literally whatever they want. Doesn't matter if they are here to save or oppress us.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Cuci Cairi
#56 - 2014-03-19 19:06:41 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Again, take the rumors and alleged reports for what you will. Whether you believe it or not. Whether there is a plentitude of evidence or none whatsoever. It doesn't matter.

No organization in the Federation should have the power to do literally whatever they want. Doesn't matter if they are here to save or oppress us.


And again, as I have stated several times, we do not know if they have accountability or oversight from the FIO or president. We do not know what accountability measures they do or do not have in place. There is no reason to assume they have none whatsoever. We merely know that they do not have public accountability. As it should be.
Apollo Lyserius
Minerva Technologies
#57 - 2014-03-19 20:54:47 UTC
Yeah, let's just allow these institutions that are already flawed from the point of view of our democracy and legal system's base principles, besides being potentially abusive, continue working until there is some kind of abuse and violation of such principles that's so evident that it can't be denied or covered up, despite circumstantial evidence that such abuses are already occurring, for us to do something about it.

Seems like a good idea.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#58 - 2014-03-19 20:59:17 UTC
I think the real surprise here is that a Gallente senate subcommittee finally managed to agree about something.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#59 - 2014-03-19 21:04:10 UTC
Apollo Lyserius wrote:
Yeah, let's just allow these institutions that are already flawed from the point of view of our democracy and legal system's base principles, besides being potentially abusive, continue working until there is some kind of abuse and violation of such principles that's so evident that it can't be denied or covered up, despite circumstantial evidence that such abuses are already occurring, for us to do something about it.

Seems like a good idea.


Freedom is not Free. It comes at a great cost, and can only be maintained through eternal vigilance.

We should be thankful for those in our Armed Forces and Intelligence Services who choose to serve our Federation and defend her interests.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

James Syagrius
Reclamation
#60 - 2014-03-19 21:18:11 UTC
Why am I reminded of the old maxim “In war the law falls silent”.

A greater and wiser man that I once said. “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.”

I cannot disagree with his sentiment, It is often necessary to break the letter of the law to defend the spirit of it.