These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Is the Naglfar worth a **** yet?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Alberik
Eusebius Corporation
#21 - 2014-03-14 20:26:40 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Selectable Damage.
Massive Alpha.
Capless Weapons.

What's not to like?


this is the description of a phoenix .. and it sucks most times
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#22 - 2014-03-14 21:03:41 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
I've always heard that the Revelation was one of the best because you didn't need to restock their ammo.

actually ammo for Dreads is not a problem at all....

Once i bought 5000 super expensive 'shadow something antimatter XL'. And i still have like 4000 somewhere in stations. This is after many CTAs in one Moros, losing it in fight, buying and fitting second and losing it again.

Actually Moros has 3 guns with ROF of 6 seconds (can be wrong here, far too long in high-sec). So in 1 minute you spend 30 items of ammo. Nothing actually.


But that is the problem, reload times mean lower DPS, unmatched to cyles its not optimal. Rev lets you fire and forget, whole cycle DPS.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#23 - 2014-03-15 06:24:32 UTC
Rab See wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
I've always heard that the Revelation was one of the best because you didn't need to restock their ammo.

actually ammo for Dreads is not a problem at all....

Once i bought 5000 super expensive 'shadow something antimatter XL'. And i still have like 4000 somewhere in stations. This is after many CTAs in one Moros, losing it in fight, buying and fitting second and losing it again.

Actually Moros has 3 guns with ROF of 6 seconds (can be wrong here, far too long in high-sec). So in 1 minute you spend 30 items of ammo. Nothing actually.


But that is the problem, reload times mean lower DPS, unmatched to cyles its not optimal. Rev lets you fire and forget, whole cycle DPS.

Not really seeing too much of an issue. Perfect skills a cycle of XL blasters is 5.74s. Reload of the same is 5s. You're barely losing a cycle. And at the 5.74s cycle you fire 52 rounds per gun per siege cycle max. Capacity allows for 80 rounds to be loaded. You only ever risk losing damage to reloads if you siege green, and even then it's less than a single cycle (or up to 8s if you allow for some latency and small server tick issues).

And to be fair, the difference in DPS between the Moros and Revelation more than makes up for the "reload" issue. A 3 T2 heatsink, meta gun, faction multifrequency Revelation gets 9761 with perfect skills, where as a 3 T2 MFS, meta gun, faction ammo Moros gets 13421 for a difference of 3660 DPS. Assuming the players are paying enough attention and you only lose 8s to reload, to make up for that 8s of firing the Revelation gets you have to shoot for a whopping 21.34 seconds. You can do 459.2s of continuous fire. So literally everything after 22 seconds is extra DPS over the Revelation. Hell, even if you're snoozing and let it go for a full minute, you still make up for the lost damage after 160 seconds.

I'm sorry, but the Revelation really isn't a great ship. It also has poor tracking making it kinda weak for a tracking dread. It was only considered good with the Moros before the rebalance because it was one of only two primarily turret dreads which meant it was one of two that could be used to blap. Now that the Naglfar can blap, the Revelation is pretty meh.


Alberik wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Selectable Damage.
Massive Alpha.
Capless Weapons.

What's not to like?


this is the description of a phoenix .. and it sucks most times

No, it missed something out of the description for a Phoenix.

To describe the Phoenix you'd have to include the following:

**** poor damage application. Like, literally the worst.
Captial missiles. (this is the only really necessary line, the previous one is redundant with it.)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#24 - 2014-03-15 18:10:30 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
I've always heard that the Revelation was one of the best because you didn't need to restock their ammo.


Instant ammo change is also nice

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#25 - 2014-03-15 22:13:38 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Selectable Damage.
Massive Alpha.
Capless Weapons.

What's not to like?

Well, I'm coming from the time when the Naglfar didn't have the 50% damage bonus and instead had two missile hardpoints to "make up for it."
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#26 - 2014-03-15 23:01:49 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Selectable Damage.
Massive Alpha.
Capless Weapons.

What's not to like?

Well, I'm coming from the time when the Naglfar didn't have the 50% damage bonus and instead had two missile hardpoints to "make up for it."



The split weapons system back then, was consistent with other Minmatar ships. At that time, Nag had 4 DPS hardpoints, and it was a selling point for the ship.
Sadly, many pilots trained for Citadel Torps, and will never ever use them now.

CCP dropped the launchers, and upped the gun bonus, decreasing training time and kept the best weapon for the ship.
It was clearly an improvement over the original design.

I think it is the most versatile dread now, for the 3 reasons I listed before.
Selectable damage means you always have the best *applicable DPS*
People will make *Blap Dread* arguments, but act like Apha isn't included in that argument.
Capless weapons, needs no explanation.

Nag is probably best, shield tanked. That might be its only down side. (most cap fleets armor) But it's not like you can get reps when you're sieged anyways.
It can be armor tanked though.
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#27 - 2014-03-15 23:54:22 UTC
Could someone please enlighten me on what a "blap" dread is?

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#28 - 2014-03-16 00:10:42 UTC
Blap dreads are tracking enhanced. Capital weapons have a hard time hitting sub-capitals, but a good blap dread can one shot a smaller faster target. (support ships for a cap engagement)

1 good, solid, wrecking shot = BLAP
Icylce
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-03-17 14:31:58 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Selectable Damage.
Massive Alpha.
Capless Weapons.

What's not to like?


+ it has only 2 weapons hence is a bit cheaper to fitBig smile
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-03-17 15:28:04 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Nag is probably best, shield tanked.


Why do you say that

No sig.
Mawderator
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#31 - 2014-03-17 15:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mawderator
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Nag is probably best, shield tanked.


Why do you say that


Blood Union and other groups have created gank fits that are capable of burst tanking 70k-100k dps. In what I have to assume was an oversight, shield boost amplifiers are functional on capitals. Combined with links and a strong blue pill, as well as a few other expensive fittings they become broken in wormholes.

hi hats :3
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#32 - 2014-03-17 17:50:47 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Nag is probably best, shield tanked.


Why do you say that


Dreads are generally put on the field as DPS platforms.
If you shield tank, you can fill the bottom slots with damage mods/tracking mods.
If you armor tank, you have to share those bottom slots with hardeners, reps, etc.

Even if you could match the tanks, you lose DPS if you armor.
Sintiar Loffwagea
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-03-17 17:52:59 UTC
people say it's the best because it's

V

E

R

T

I

C

A

L

and i get it's it's freaky Awesome Vertical .
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#34 - 2014-03-17 23:10:35 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Nag is probably best, shield tanked.


Why do you say that


Dreads are generally put on the field as DPS platforms.
If you shield tank, you can fill the bottom slots with damage mods/tracking mods.
If you armor tank, you have to share those bottom slots with hardeners, reps, etc.

Even if you could match the tanks, you lose DPS if you armor.


But you get more slots to tank in lows and can run that tank for twice the amount of time compared to shield tankers. You have more than enough before diminishing returns on damage mods in the lows, and you can fit TCs where shield tankers cant, or gimp theirs to do the same. Its called variation .. and we all know that armour tanking wins hands down when it comes to supporting those dreads.
Blodhgarm Dethahal
8 Sins of Man
Stray Dogs.
#35 - 2014-03-17 23:37:48 UTC
If you Armor Tank the Nag I'd asume it would be Arty Snipe fit, freeing mids for SeBos and TCs.

If you want to Armor Tank an Auto Nag I recomend getting a Moros. The massive tank you get from Shield Tank on a Nag is too big to ignore. Granted its more burst tanking than armor, but I'd like to see an Armor Dread tank 4 other Dreads for a siege cycle and live without refiting, and when you drop siege all you need is a carrier to cap you back up and you are good to go for another cycle. And thats all before refits
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#36 - 2014-03-18 00:19:21 UTC
Rab See wrote:


But you get more slots to tank in lows and can run that tank for twice the amount of time compared to shield tankers. You have more than enough before diminishing returns on damage mods in the lows, and you can fit TCs where shield tankers cant, or gimp theirs to do the same. Its called variation .. and we all know that armour tanking wins hands down when it comes to supporting those dreads.



I am speaking specifically of the Nag. It has equal slots in the lows and mids. 6 each.
Full tank in the mids and full gank in the lows, is the best fit for ship.
I mean...what else would you do with 6 mids? Utility Dread with *average tank* and *average DPS*?

Yeah clearly the Moros is made to armor tank.
Same for Rev with 8 lows and 4 mids
Again; The Nag can be armor tanked, but I don't think it's the *best* fit for it.

As for supporting dreads. I've never seen much support that was centered around the dread. The dread go's into siege and it's on its own until the cycle runs out. If it can't tank until the cycle is over, it cannot receive support. If it DID make it through the cycle, (That means you have already proven you can tank the current DPS) chances are, all it needs is cap. (If it was shield tanked, there should be a LOT LESS armor to repair) At that point, you jump it out, or re-engage siege. Generally, if a dread is on the field, it should be in siege or gtfo.


Ship vs ship, I'd put 3 shield Nags on the field against 3 armor Nags any day of the week.
And I would feel confident fielding them in an Armor fleet.
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#37 - 2014-03-18 04:10:37 UTC
It is amazing to hear that the 3500mm cannons see use.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-03-18 11:17:28 UTC
Rab See wrote:
But you get more slots to tank in lows and can run that tank for twice the amount of time compared to shield tankers. You have more than enough before diminishing returns on damage mods in the lows, and you can fit TCs where shield tankers cant, or gimp theirs to do the same. Its called variation .. and we all know that armour tanking wins hands down when it comes to supporting those dreads.


Tanking duration is a meaningless number. For tanking, the ones that matter are total cap reservoir and efficiency of conversion of cap to EHP, together with burst tank to ensure you get a chance to convert that cap to EHP. For WH use, the SMC-rigged shield Naglfar is king. The only problem is figuring out how it fits in with your armour T3s...What?
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#39 - 2014-03-22 18:10:02 UTC
Alberik wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Selectable Damage.
Massive Alpha.
Capless Weapons.

What's not to like?


this is the description of a phoenix .. and it sucks most times



It sucks all of the time, and ccp doesnt seem like they care to fix it, just like caldari medium weapons and torps.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#40 - 2014-03-24 04:45:56 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Alberik wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Selectable Damage.
Massive Alpha.
Capless Weapons.

What's not to like?


this is the description of a phoenix .. and it sucks most times



It sucks all of the time, and ccp doesnt seem like they care to fix it, just like caldari medium weapons and torps.

there should be some rapid cruise missile launchers with 10k dps and 3min reload.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Previous page123Next page