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Can we get the option to remap our skill points?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#141 - 2014-03-14 14:01:30 UTC
Sarcasim wrote:
Sorry there is no difference in what you imply or what you state. Both are wrong. Resetting SP would not make them useless or meaningless just because you don’t agree with it or like the suggestion.
That's not what makes them meaningless. What makes them meaningless is that they no longer offer any distinction in abilities between characters and no longer represent a history of decisions made.

If you have a meaningful choice between A or B, and suddenly can have both at any time you want regardless of what you decided before, that initial choice is no longer meaningful. It is no longer an actual choice.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#142 - 2014-03-14 14:26:27 UTC
Sarcasim wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Sarcasim wrote:
Same purpose as having attributes that can be re-mapped.
Close, but not quite. There's a crucial difference between attributes and skills: you are not removing you attributes and replacing their effect with something completely different forwards and backwards in history.

If you'll allow some semantic drift for a second, attributes are a mechanism that turn time into SP, whereas skills are effects of that mechanism. Altering the mechanism after the fact does not alter the effect it has already had — only what effect it will have in the future. Altering the effects themselves, however, is akin to turning back time. At that point, the mechanism no longer has any real point because you can go back and get a different, “better”, result.

The entire mechanism is bypassed and the effects themselves become quite meaningless because they're only a result of the moment rather than of the entire decision-making and SP-gathering process that led you to the result.

Quote:
There are many reasons this may not be a good idea, but to imply resetting or re-map of SP makes skills or skill training useless is not one of them.
It's not something I imply — it's something I state as a fact because it is a very obvious result of being able to reverse, alter, and remake decisions you've made in the past. Or, well… to be a bit more pedantic, it doesn't render them useleess — it renders them meaningless because they are infinitely mutable.


Sorry there is no difference in what you imply or what you state. Both are wrong. Resetting SP would not make them useless or meaningless just because you don’t agree with it or like the suggestion.

It may not be in the best interest of the game to do so, but not for the silly reason you (state).

I have read enough of your post and seen how you conduct yourself on the forums to know that you enjoy arguing and would never admit to being wrong.

I will not become ensnared or entangled in your foolishness. Do not look for me to continue to engage in your Trollish methods.


Chorus:
|: I saw the light, :|
I saw the light,
No more darkness,
No more night -,
Now I'm so happy,
No sorrow in sight.
Praise the Lord,
I saw the light.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#143 - 2014-03-14 15:38:12 UTC
Yes.

I'm currently involved in PVP, but a HUGE portion of my skill points has been invested in mining from when I first started out. If I can have a neural remap, then a skill remap makes sense as well. But just like the OP said, provide some penalty to prevent abuse.

+1
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2014-03-14 16:08:04 UTC
Sarcasim wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Sarcasim wrote:
Same purpose as having attributes that can be re-mapped.
Close, but not quite. There's a crucial difference between attributes and skills: you are not removing you attributes and replacing their effect with something completely different forwards and backwards in history.

If you'll allow some semantic drift for a second, attributes are a mechanism that turn time into SP, whereas skills are effects of that mechanism. Altering the mechanism after the fact does not alter the effect it has already had — only what effect it will have in the future. Altering the effects themselves, however, is akin to turning back time. At that point, the mechanism no longer has any real point because you can go back and get a different, “better”, result.

The entire mechanism is bypassed and the effects themselves become quite meaningless because they're only a result of the moment rather than of the entire decision-making and SP-gathering process that led you to the result.

Quote:
There are many reasons this may not be a good idea, but to imply resetting or re-map of SP makes skills or skill training useless is not one of them.
It's not something I imply — it's something I state as a fact because it is a very obvious result of being able to reverse, alter, and remake decisions you've made in the past. Or, well… to be a bit more pedantic, it doesn't render them useleess — it renders them meaningless because they are infinitely mutable.


Sorry there is no difference in what you imply or what you state. Both are wrong. Resetting SP would not make them useless or meaningless just because you don’t agree with it or like the suggestion.

It may not be in the best interest of the game to do so, but not for the silly reason you (state).

I have read enough of your post and seen how you conduct yourself on the forums to know that you enjoy arguing and would never admit to being wrong.

I will not become ensnared or entangled in your foolishness. Do not look for me to continue to engage in your Trollish methods.

Offering full remaps for skillpoints would absolutely make training skills meaningless. You'd switch from training skills to training skillpoints. Making decisions and living with the consequences of your decisions no longer applies.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#145 - 2014-03-14 16:39:38 UTC
Sarcasim wrote:
Sorry there is no difference in what you imply or what you state. Both are wrong. Resetting SP would not make them useless or meaningless just because you don’t agree with it or like the suggestion.


Sure it would. Everything I've trained before becomes irrelevant. All that matters is what my SP count is. While new players would still be training the skills they need as they play, I (having enough sp to cover all my basics) can comfortably switch my main and all my accounts into int/mem +5's, and stick to training useless science skills to level 5, just because it allows me to gain SP as rapidly as possible.

If I want to train an alt, I can do the same, and remap when he has enough SP to be "done" and remap into whatever I need at that time, or whatever happens to be in demand on the character bazaar. No thinking ahead about what kind of plan I need or what the alt will be for. Old players can already train alts faster than a new player can train his main, this would just make the advantage even bigger.

If you put 200 days of training into a golem without first using missiles ever, or using a raven ever, or using an SNI ever, then you're utterly foolish and no amount of skill remaps will make up for it, and at worst you've wasted very little of that time, as most of that time is in a host of core skills that will benefit multiple if not all ships. This example is too ridiculous to be taken seriously. Furthermore, there's this thing called the test server. It allows you to fly things before you buy them. If you sign up for scheduled and pre-announced SiSi mass tests, you get a couple mil of unallocated SP on the test server, specifically allowing you to test things before committing to them.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Sarcasim
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#146 - 2014-03-14 18:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarcasim
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sarcasim wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Sarcasim wrote:
Same purpose as having attributes that can be re-mapped.
Close, but not quite. There's a crucial difference between attributes and skills: you are not removing you attributes and replacing their effect with something completely different forwards and backwards in history.

If you'll allow some semantic drift for a second, attributes are a mechanism that turn time into SP, whereas skills are effects of that mechanism. Altering the mechanism after the fact does not alter the effect it has already had — only what effect it will have in the future. Altering the effects themselves, however, is akin to turning back time. At that point, the mechanism no longer has any real point because you can go back and get a different, “better”, result.

The entire mechanism is bypassed and the effects themselves become quite meaningless because they're only a result of the moment rather than of the entire decision-making and SP-gathering process that led you to the result.

Quote:
There are many reasons this may not be a good idea, but to imply resetting or re-map of SP makes skills or skill training useless is not one of them.
It's not something I imply — it's something I state as a fact because it is a very obvious result of being able to reverse, alter, and remake decisions you've made in the past. Or, well… to be a bit more pedantic, it doesn't render them useleess — it renders them meaningless because they are infinitely mutable.


Sorry there is no difference in what you imply or what you state. Both are wrong. Resetting SP would not make them useless or meaningless just because you don’t agree with it or like the suggestion.

It may not be in the best interest of the game to do so, but not for the silly reason you (state).

I have read enough of your post and seen how you conduct yourself on the forums to know that you enjoy arguing and would never admit to being wrong.

I will not become ensnared or entangled in your foolishness. Do not look for me to continue to engage in your Trollish methods.

Offering full remaps for skillpoints would absolutely make training skills meaningless. You'd switch from training skills to training skillpoints. Making decisions and living with the consequences of your decisions no longer applies.

I could see the potential for abuse perhaps. However SP are a set amount and the time invested is the time invested. Six months of training cant be traded in for 10 months of training.

You wouldn't be able to train for the FOTM if you only get one reset a year or one reset a lifetime, it would be FOTY (flavor of the year)

If I were to use this same thought process you offer I would have to argue against selling pilots for the same reasons.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#147 - 2014-03-14 18:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sarcasim wrote:
You wouldn't be able to train for the FOTM if you only get one reset a year or one reset a lifetime, it would be FOTY (flavor of the year)
Yes you would. You only put the SP back in that you need — the rest you leave unassigned, sloshing around in the SP pool for whenever something new comes up. When the FOTM changes, you use those free SP to instantly get it.

This is why the whole idea effectively removes skills completely: any time you want something, you instantly have it. Or, well… any time an older player wants something, he'll instantly have it. New players are surprise-butt-sexed in every way.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#148 - 2014-03-14 20:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
This proposal should be moved to Features & Ideas Discussion. But as there already have been a lot of proposals in that part of the forum similar to this one, it would get a lock for being redundant.
So I might as well lock it here.

The rules:
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As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)