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Resistance debuff ewar.
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Menaiya Zamayid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-03-14 03:50:00 UTC
Keywords: Ewar, Resist, debuff

I am not too sure how well balanced this idea is, and I've had this toying around in my head a lot especially after playing another game recently.

The main idea behind this is people tend to boost their resistances heavily. The idea I have in mind Could be considered ewar or just plain "Debuff"

Add multiple modules that can apply a debuff to 1 type or all types of resistances making the target more vulnerable to that type of damage.

Example of concept:

Wedge targets Vicks's ship with the EM-Pulse Beam.. Now Vicks was flying some rookie ship with a 50% resistance to EM on his armor. When he's hit with the EM-Pulse beam, he loses half of that resistance bringing it down to 25%.

The variations I've thought of outside the box: Making it target shields only, Target Armor only, Target 1 type, All Types. A "Leech" effect whereas if the person is using an active hardener half of that hardener's effect is applied to the attacker instead. Of course to defend against that remote resistance boosting?
Kenrailae
Scrapyard Artificer's
#2 - 2014-03-14 03:57:05 UTC
How would Armor natively at 50% EM resist before any skills or modules be leeched down to 25% EM resist. Explain the theory behind this. Eve is a game and some leniency has to be considered for that purpose, but it also has to have a basis to start from.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Menaiya Zamayid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-03-14 04:03:19 UTC
The idea is that the imposing module is weakening the armor a bit in such a way to be more vulnerable to that type of damage. I was thinking on ways to counter the hardener stacking.
Kenrailae
Scrapyard Artificer's
#4 - 2014-03-14 04:06:39 UTC
Menaiya Zamayid wrote:
The idea is that the imposing module is weakening the armor a bit in such a way to be more vulnerable to that type of damage. I was thinking on ways to counter the hardener stacking.



Countering Hardener stacking can be done with Neuts.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#5 - 2014-03-14 04:10:57 UTC
I approve of this message. Just think of the possibilities.

Supercarriers leeched down to 4-5 mil EHP because of massed resist debuff.

A Blackbird packing 4 of each Therm/Kin debuffers plus 1-2 Talos ganking freighters.

A BB + 2 tornado alphaing a tanked Golem!

The possibility for tears are immense :P




Realistically though.... not a chance in hell. Far far too powerful.
Menaiya Zamayid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-03-14 04:46:50 UTC
Possible severe Stacking penalties could compensate for that. Also could take into account a simliar system the neutralizer's do and basically expose yourself to the same penalty as well. Can also perhaps only limit it to a "Max Applied" type system. Could also only function if the target is using an active hardener? Like I said some tweaking could be done. The main reason I don't like neuting and Nosing is its predictable. I wanted to toss in some variety and provide a few twists.

Another possibility is you can use only 1 module or type of debuff resistance on a ship and hte target is only affected by one per type.?
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#7 - 2014-03-14 04:58:18 UTC
Menaiya Zamayid wrote:
Possible severe Stacking penalties could compensate for that. Also could take into account a simliar system the neutralizer's do and basically expose yourself to the same penalty as well. Can also perhaps only limit it to a "Max Applied" type system. Could also only function if the target is using an active hardener? Like I said some tweaking could be done. The main reason I don't like neuting and Nosing is its predictable. I wanted to toss in some variety and provide a few twists.

Another possibility is you can use only 1 module or type of debuff resistance on a ship and hte target is only affected by one per type.?


Not really feasible. Even a 10% debuff to a single resist is insanely powerful. Let's go back to the Supercarrier example.

An Aeon in a fight for his life overheat his tank mode is going to have about 95% Thermic resist. Let's say there's a group of Moros that just got dropped on his ass.

A 10% debuff lowers his Thermic resist by 9.5% on the first mod, nearly TRIPLING the amount of Thermic damage he is tanking. Even with a 50% per mod stacking drop to each attribute, a large fleet could strip close to 20% of his original Thermic and Kinetic resists away from him, increasing the actual applied damage by somewhere in the range of 400-500% applied DPS.

Aside from that, only X number of modules may be applied to a target is not a mechanic that should be introduced.

No matter how you try to change it, it's going to end up either incredibly gamebreakingly overpowered, or completely ineffective.
Menaiya Zamayid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-03-14 04:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Menaiya Zamayid
Correct me if I am wrong but aren't Supers and Titans immune to almost all EWAR except neuting and nosing?

If we take the "I take the same penalty you do" approach all said Super has to do is send the type of damage he's being debuffed with back at the guy doing it. The attacker's paying the price to apply that weakness to his target.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#9 - 2014-03-14 05:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Menaiya Zamayid wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but aren't Supers and Titans immune to almost all EWAR except neuting and nosing?

Yeah, but it was just an example. It applies to a carrier to a great extent as well. A group of these mods could double-triple the applied damage to a carrier by stripping away 15-18% raw resists.

In general, it's just far too powerful of a debuff.

Hardeners get less effective the greater your resists have already been hardened to, but the proposed mod increases in effectiveness with tank.

Even a Tanky BS like a highly tanked Rohk or Abaddon or Rattlesnake will have the applied damage almost doubled when a half dozen of these are applied to it, with a 50ish% damage increase with just one or two mods. And that's assuming only a 10% debuff effecting a single resist of a single target with a 50% loss of effectiveness for each applied mod past the first.

That's far, far too powerful to be the result of a single mod easily mounted on a subcap.


Menaiya Zamayid wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but aren't Supers and Titans immune to almost all EWAR except neuting and nosing?

If we take the "I take the same penalty you do" approach all said Super has to do is send the type of damage he's being debuffed with back at the guy doing it. The attacker's paying the price to apply that weakness to his target.

Nobody picks on a super with one ship. They pick on them with dozens or hundreds, the vast majority of which are probably subcapitals. If they are not subcaps, then it means someone got hotdropped in route to somewhere and has an expected lifespan of about 30 seconds.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-03-14 05:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
What if it had a similar formula to how the stacking penalty is applies?

So, if my rupture has 75% em using one T1 hardener (oh god i hope my math is right) the effect of a mod taking away 10% would be to reduce the amount on the hardener to 40% bonus instead of 50%. Using my 3rd grade math skills im gonna guess that means 70% resists instead of 75%. And of course these would be stacked on the module itself as well so two mods would only remove 15%, not 20.

If my math is wrong then disregard this post. I'm curious about it and trying to see how it could work.

E: after a little quick research i realize my math is really bad and i need to immediately go burn my diploma.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#11 - 2014-03-14 06:23:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Rowells wrote:
What if it had a similar formula to how the stacking penalty is applies?

So, if my rupture has 75% em using one T1 hardener (oh god i hope my math is right) the effect of a mod taking away 10% would be to reduce the amount on the hardener to 40% bonus instead of 50%. Using my 3rd grade math skills im gonna guess that means 70% resists instead of 75%. And of course these would be stacked on the module itself as well so two mods would only remove 15%, not 20.

If my math is wrong then disregard this post. I'm curious about it and trying to see how it could work.

E: after a little quick research i realize my math is really bad and i need to immediately go burn my diploma.


Problem with this module is that it's going to be completely useless in small gang combat, and overpoweringly powerful in huge fleets, where even a few % drop in the resists of the capital being primaries results in a huge increase in damage.

The module cannot be powerful enough to be effective against subcaps to be worth using a slot for it without it also being insanely powerful against capitals. But the levels which it would be considered "Effective" are as low as a fraction of a single %.

Let take a situation were you have 300-400 subcaps trying to kill 100 carriers, each of which has a resist profile of around 87% average resist profile (after refitting for tank when primaried.)

If a mere 12 ships in the fleet each use up a single slot for this one of these mods, and the TOTAL combined effect of all dozen of those mods damping the two damage types their fleet is using (Lets say Kin/therm for a FuckYouFleet), results in a mere 2% drop from 87% to 85%, then those dozen mods, even with only stripping away a total of 2% from two resists, just increased the applied damage of the ENTIRE FLEET by 15%.

Or roughly another 60 ships worth of DPS (off a 400 person fleet), using less then two blackbirds worth of mod space.

Crazy what happens when you start moving around even small numbers on a massive scale, huh?
Seliah
Red Cloud Vigil
#12 - 2014-03-14 09:39:42 UTC
I don't like the idea. Juggling around with different ammo / damage types based on your opponent's ship resistances is a solid and interesting mechanic. Resistance-debuff ewar would just make all of it pretty much pointless and minimize the differences between using a weapon system with limited damage types available or one with a broad choice of damage types.
Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-03-14 09:48:27 UTC
I can only imagine this being used in super cap fleets, reducing their resist to your titans dooms day, poof there goes a super from 1 DD.
I vote no
Menaiya Zamayid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-03-14 10:43:19 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Rowells wrote:
What if it had a similar formula to how the stacking penalty is applies?

So, if my rupture has 75% em using one T1 hardener (oh god i hope my math is right) the effect of a mod taking away 10% would be to reduce the amount on the hardener to 40% bonus instead of 50%. Using my 3rd grade math skills im gonna guess that means 70% resists instead of 75%. And of course these would be stacked on the module itself as well so two mods would only remove 15%, not 20.

If my math is wrong then disregard this post. I'm curious about it and trying to see how it could work.

E: after a little quick research i realize my math is really bad and i need to immediately go burn my diploma.


Problem with this module is that it's going to be completely useless in small gang combat, and overpoweringly powerful in huge fleets, where even a few % drop in the resists of the capital being primaries results in a huge increase in damage.

The module cannot be powerful enough to be effective against subcaps to be worth using a slot for it without it also being insanely powerful against capitals. But the levels which it would be considered "Effective" are as low as a fraction of a single %.

Let take a situation were you have 300-400 subcaps trying to kill 100 carriers, each of which has a resist profile of around 87% average resist profile (after refitting for tank when primaried.)

If a mere 12 ships in the fleet each use up a single slot for this one of these mods, and the TOTAL combined effect of all dozen of those mods damping the two damage types their fleet is using (Lets say Kin/therm for a FuckYouFleet), results in a mere 2% drop from 87% to 85%, then those dozen mods, even with only stripping away a total of 2% from two resists, just increased the applied damage of the ENTIRE FLEET by 15%.

Or roughly another 60 ships worth of DPS (off a 400 person fleet), using less then two blackbirds worth of mod space.

Crazy what happens when you start moving around even small numbers on a massive scale, huh?


I can understand that how about making its effectiveness inversely applied based on Signature of the target. The larger the signature the less effective the module? Seems to me that the "Sweet" spot of effectiveness would hit right about the cruiser BC Range based on your ineffective to smaller ships and overpowering to Capitals.

Quote:
I don't like the idea. Juggling around with different ammo / damage types based on your opponent's ship resistances is a solid and interesting mechanic. Resistance-debuff ewar would just make all of it pretty much pointless and minimize the differences between using a weapon system with limited damage types available or one with a broad choice of damage types.

There have been a number of times where the reload to change ammo types to find the opponents's weakness is just not feasible except in a prolonged fight. The main counter to people applying the debuff is they expose themselves to the same loss.