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Fittable freighters possible?

Author
donmess wime
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2014-02-20 16:01:00 UTC  |  Edited by: donmess wime
Jill Chastot wrote:
DCII too stronk

60% resists


Is it too stronk on a Dreadnaught or a Carrier? They gain big increases in EHP when fitting DCU's

Would a smaller and slower freighter with ~600k EHP really be that bad?
donmess wime
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2014-02-20 16:12:05 UTC  |  Edited by: donmess wime
PotatoOverdose wrote:
donmess wime wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
You want to know the reason freighters won't get fittings? Ok, here it is:

Think about the reason you made this thread, the train of thought that went: "oh boy! wouldn't it be cool if my freighter could do XYZ!?"

Got it? Good.

Congratulations! That's the exact reason why it'll never happen. Why? Because freighters freight. They don't tank amazingly well. They don't align quickly. They don't fit stabs. They freight. That is what they do, and that is all they will ever do, because that is their role, and that is all they need to do.


Accodring to this reasoning pvp pilots should not get fitting as well, niether should mining barges, or tier 1,2,3 industrials. But they do, because thats what makes eve interesting, you would hear an uproar of CCP released a ship for PVP that was not customizable. Because, its only purpose is to PVP.

Wooosh.

Tell me, can a freighter hull, by itself without fittings, be used to haul the largest volumes in the game? Yes, yes it can.

Tell me, can a rifter hull, by itself without fittings, be used to tackle or shoot any other ship? No, no it can't.

It's not about customization, it's about roles. A freighter doesn't need additional modules to freight. It does need additional modules to align quickly, fit stabs, or tank better. But none of those are it's role. A rifter can't pvp without modules, hence it needs them to fill it's role.

As for magical hypothetical scenarios that don't happen and will never happen (see the part of your argument in bold), any moron can come up with an unfittable pvp ship that is simply amazing. Point in case: CCP introduces a frigate that has the old AOE shootable-through-cyno-into-another-system doomsday built into the hull; no one would ever suggest it's underpowered. And now we've both made up hypothetical scenarios with no relation to reality. Cookies for everyone.


Why are you saying no to this? How could it hurt that freighters get fitting options? You must understand this is a game where player choices are important. Besides you cant compare the rifter as it is now with the freighter, the rifter would have to have permant mounted guns etc. in order to the comparison. Then you can say its a PVP ****. But there is nothing for players to enjoy because fitting is such a fundamental part of the game, i dont know why its being worked around when it comes to the pinnacle of industrial ships, the freighters, its one of the best ships an industrial pilot can own. The mining barges are suffering a little from the same disease where their customizability is being reduced because ITS INDUSTRY DAMNIT. Sometimes i think there are too little people at CCP representing the industrial player, or way to play, and i guess thats fair enough because the larger portion is doing PVP/PVE etc. But i bet you the most loyal customers are those into industry, so throw them a bone. Make freighters fittable. Rant off.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#83 - 2014-02-20 19:49:16 UTC
One time bump to fix forum.
stoicfaux
#84 - 2014-02-20 20:36:57 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
On a more serious note, if freighter pilots find their cargo size is limited more by ganking profitability than by available goods to transport, then we probably need to throw them a bone. Meaning, the ganking business probably shouldn't be allowed to overshadow the business side of freight hauling.


Have you seen the sheer number of freighter in Jita and surrounding systems at any time of the day, but especially peak hours?

Freighters are fine.

But are we seeing so many freighters because they're making more trips with partially filled holds in order to avoid carrying gank-worthy amounts of cargo?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#85 - 2014-02-20 20:45:22 UTC
donmess wime wrote:
Hello

Are fittable freighters possible without being too overpowered? Has anyone done the math?


I wouldn't mind some high slots added. Launchers and turrets specifically.

I'd pay to watch two freighters duking it out at a gate.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#86 - 2014-02-20 20:50:30 UTC
donmess wime wrote:
Why are you saying no to this? How could it hurt that freighters get fitting options?
This has already been explained.

Quote:
You must understand this is a game where player choices are important.
…and between the many different hauling ships, you have tons of options and choices to make.

Giving them fitting space for the same of giving them fitting space is meaningless. So again, what is it you actually what to achieve? What is the problem you're trying to solve? How is it not being fulfilled by what's already at your disposal?
Hoshi Sorano
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2014-03-11 20:27:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
So again, what is it you actually what to achieve? What is the problem you're trying to solve? How is it not being fulfilled by what's already at your disposal?


How about the ability to move loads in the ~300k m3 capacity range through hostile space while being able to fit a reasonable defense? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not aware of any options that currently fill that role. Orcas top out around 100k, and you have to sacrifice all lows to do that, so no fitting stabs, etc.

Currently, using a freighter for such a role is pointless. In highsec, you often don't fill the freighter anywhere near to capacity in order to avoid becoming a gank target. In low/null, a freighter is a sitting duck, with no way to improve its defensive ability. So you have lots of unused cargo space, and since you can't reconfigure the fit, get nothing in its place. With any other hauler, there's a tradeoff between cargo capacity and defensive modules; freighters lack this choice.

Yes, you have jump freighters for the more hazardous regions, but these generally don't get anywhere without a good deal of support, and they're really only efficient with full loads. So there is still a need for a mid-capacity cargo hauler that can travel between low, null, and high with a reasonable level of risk. Making standard freighters fittable would give the opportunity to fill that role.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#88 - 2014-03-11 20:47:11 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Because for every low slot you give them, you have to reduce their cargo space by 22% to ensure that they can't reach 1M m³.


You do? Pretty sure OP just wants to be able to buff his existing freighter with mods. What terrible thing happens when you can haul >1M m³?


Dreadnoughts and triage carriers camping jita, Dreads ripping down POS towers, Fighters in level 4 missions etc.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#89 - 2014-03-11 20:48:18 UTC
Hoshi Sorano wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So again, what is it you actually what to achieve? What is the problem you're trying to solve? How is it not being fulfilled by what's already at your disposal?


How about the ability to move loads in the ~300k m3 capacity range through hostile space while being able to fit a reasonable defense? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not aware of any options that currently fill that role.


You form a fleet.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#90 - 2014-03-11 20:51:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Hoshi Sorano wrote:


How about the ability to move loads in the ~300k m3 capacity range through hostile space while being able to fit a reasonable defense? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not aware of any options that currently fill that role.


You form a fleet.


This solution is only viable if you have friends and like to play with other people. I know very few freighter pilots who meet either of those criteria.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Hoshi Sorano
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2014-03-13 17:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hoshi Sorano
baltec1 wrote:
Hoshi Sorano wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So again, what is it you actually what to achieve? What is the problem you're trying to solve? How is it not being fulfilled by what's already at your disposal?


How about the ability to move loads in the ~300k m3 capacity range through hostile space while being able to fit a reasonable defense? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not aware of any options that currently fill that role.


You form a fleet.


Ah, yes, flippancy; the defense against all logic.

Forming a fleet reduces the efficiency of the haul, dramatically increasing the man hours needed per m3 of cargo moved, which will only result in higher prices.

Even though it is an option to accomplish the same end result, the fact remains that there is still not a ship which can move ~300k m3 cargos while fitting its own defense, therefore, the role is still unfilled.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#92 - 2014-03-13 17:23:23 UTC
Hoshi Sorano wrote:
Ah, yes, flippancy; the defense against all logic.
How is it flippant to give a completely accurate, trivially implemented, and entirely straight-forward answer to your question?

Quote:
Forming a fleet reduces the efficiency of the haul, dramatically increasing the man hours needed per m3 of cargo moved, which will only result in higher prices.
So? If those are your worries, why are you moving through hostile space to begin with? That is where your efficiency and prices take a hit.

Quote:
Even though it is an option to accomplish the same end result, the fact remains that there is still not a ship which can move ~300k m3 cargos while fitting its own defense, therefore, the role is still unfilled.

Why does this role need to exist?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#93 - 2014-03-13 17:34:54 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
On a more serious note, if freighter pilots find their cargo size is limited more by ganking profitability than by available goods to transport, then we probably need to throw them a bone. Meaning, the ganking business probably shouldn't be allowed to overshadow the business side of freight hauling.


Have you seen the sheer number of freighter in Jita and surrounding systems at any time of the day, but especially peak hours?

Freighters are fine.

But are we seeing so many freighters because they're making more trips with partially filled holds in order to avoid carrying gank-worthy amounts of cargo?



Lets face it, Most people use the wrong ship for transporting anything.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2014-03-13 17:36:10 UTC
Hoshi Sorano wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Hoshi Sorano wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So again, what is it you actually what to achieve? What is the problem you're trying to solve? How is it not being fulfilled by what's already at your disposal?


How about the ability to move loads in the ~300k m3 capacity range through hostile space while being able to fit a reasonable defense? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not aware of any options that currently fill that role.


You form a fleet.


Ah, yes, flippancy; the defense against all logic.

Forming a fleet reduces the efficiency of the haul, dramatically increasing the man hours needed per m3 of cargo moved, which will only result in higher prices.

Even though it is an option to accomplish the same end result, the fact remains that there is still not a ship which can move ~300k m3 cargos while fitting its own defense, therefore, the role is still unfilled.


Ever think that there is not meant to be such a ship for moving 300k of high value cargo?
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#95 - 2014-03-13 17:47:21 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:


This solution is only viable if you have friends and like to play with other people. I know very few freighter pilots.


Fixed that for you. Incidentally, with the HP buffer being structure (0% resists) and not effectively repairable there is NO way to keep a freighter alive in when it hits the fan.

This ENCOURAGES freighter pilots to stay solo, for op security.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#96 - 2014-03-13 17:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:


This solution is only viable if you have friends and like to play with other people. I know very few freighter pilots.


Fixed that for you. Incidentally, with the HP buffer being structure (0% resists) and not effectively repairable there is NO way to keep a freighter alive in when it hits the fan.

This ENCOURAGES freighter pilots to stay solo, for op security.


Large Remote Hull Repairer II
Medium Hull Repairer II
Small Remote Hull Repairer II
Hull Repping drones were added as of this week.

Plus We have the armour and sheild reppers.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#97 - 2014-03-13 18:04:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
As long as a freighter could NOT fit a DCU, nor a 100mn MWD, nor a cloak!, I have no issues with fittable freighters.

Make them balance agility, capacity, and tank, so you get one of the three, but no more.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#98 - 2014-03-13 18:06:36 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Make them balance agility, capacity, and tank, so you get one of the three, but no more.

I prefer them the way they are now, where you don't have to sacrifice one (or two) for the other(s). P
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#99 - 2014-03-13 19:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
This is what is required to add a low-slot when trying to maintain the status quo, because modules increase the following:

* Reduce hull, armor, and shield amounts.
* Reduce hull, armor, and shield resists.
* Reduce shield recharge rate (hp/s).
* Reduce cargo capacity.
* Reduce agility.
* Reduce velocity.

These could be substantial nerfs, especially when module overloading is considered.

Armor reppers, especially capital-size, and ancillary armor boosters probably would also have to be addressed.

Mid-slots are similar, though shield boosters and capacitor boosters may have to be addressed. Plus warping in 10 seconds may be considered an issue.

Adding high-slots is probably the least problematic, though not without issues: cloak, capital-sized weapons, cyno.

I certainly wouldn't want to be The Bear that had to juggle the numbers, and I'd just leave them as-is. [Though EVE really needs a sub-cap ship carrier.]
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#100 - 2014-03-13 19:20:31 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
This is what is required to add a low-slot when trying to maintain the status quo, because modules increase the following:

* Reduce hull, armor, and shield amounts.
* Reduce hull, armor, and shield resists.
* Reduce shield recharge rate (hp/s).
* Reduce cargo capacity.
* Reduce agility.
* Reduce velocity.

These could be substantial nerfs, especially when module overloading is considered.

Armor reppers, especially capital-size, and ancillary armor boosters probably would also have to be addressed.

Mid-slots are similar, though shield boosters and capacitor boosters may have to be addressed. Plus warping in 10 seconds may be considered an issue.

Adding high-slots is probably the least problematic, though not without issues: cloak, capital-sized weapons, cyno.

I certainly wouldn't want to be The Bear that had to juggle the numbers, and I'd just leave them as-is. [Though EVE really needs a sub-cap ship carrier.]


The amount of PG the ship is assigned will balance things like reppers and capital modules.

Cloak is an issue, as it would be an extremely powerful mod for the freighter. Several Sov Structures require a freighter to move, and a cloak would make moving them a bit too simple. As for the cyno or guns, who cares....

The only midslot item of concern is the 100MN MWD. Currently you can make an Orca enter warp in 10 seconds using the "pulse your MWD" technique, and I think extending this to freighters with a single modules is too much. Especially if they can fit a tank in the lows and an MWD in the mid.

As for the Lows. The DCU is problematic because it is a sinlge Mod that essentially doubles the ships EHP. Freighters have mostly structure, and the DCU is just too potent. As for armor reppers, shield reppers, plates, etc... The base HP in Armor is generally so large that you will get a lot more EHP by simply adding resistances to your Armor. This is also very beneficial for RR. I outlined an idea on some stats that could work for rebalancing a freighter here.