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Can we get the option to remap our skill points?

First post First post
Author
Aivo Dresden
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-03-13 16:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Scipio Artelius wrote:
It don't.
My mammy taught me, two wrongs don't make a right!
Get rid of neural remaps too.

To be honest, in the earlier years of EVE it wasn't possible to remap either. It's a fairly new concept that. You couldn't even pick your starting attributes. They were automatically assigned according to the bloodline you had selected. Speaking of things having consequences, in that way character creation was very unforgiving.

My 2 cents on this. There's no such thing as 'wasted' skill points. Perhaps now you aren't using a specific skill, that doesn't mean that at the time you were training it you weren't using it. Obviously you were, why else did you train it? And since all the benefits and rewards of having said skill were already reaped, it makes no sense to now call it useless and remove it. The ONLY reason people want this kind of stuff is because they are impatient. They want something else instead and don't want to spend the time training for it. It's just disgusting how some players want instant gratification. Using this as a method to 'catch up' makes no sense either. There's only so many points you can put in a skill. Once you've got Frigates V, it really doesn't matter if you have a 200m sp character or a 10m sp character. You are both just as efficient at piloting that Frigate. Once you have done the core and basic skills you've effectively caught up.

Not to mention, all the reasons Tippia already brought up. It just ruins so many things, like remaps, like planning, like the character bazaar, like having any kind of responsibility for the course of your training and progression, ...

And the reason people get annoyed with these kinds of threads is because there's one every few days, without fail. This crap has been discussed a hundred times already and every time the same points are brought up. But you know what, in your case I understand. You can't even use the forum search function (or be bothered to post in the correct sub forum; the Skill Discussions one) so how could you possibly take any responsibility for your skilling or training. Get out and go back to WoW, where you can have your constant respecs.
dadar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-03-13 16:52:42 UTC
i am all for this myself it would fix the major downside that new players have.


the amount of skills in this game is overwhelming for a new player there are so many skills so many paths to chose from picking the wrong skills at the wrong time can set your over all plan back months.

new players don't know what they should be training giving or selling a reset wouldn't be a bad thing and the framework to do it is already in place with the ablity to give free sp and the removal of the learning skills


this would be very easy to implement.

the only downside I see is when folks join corps they will go over that persons skills an prob tell them they have to reset and train such and such skills etc in the future.
Norian Lonark
Black Thorne Corporation
#83 - 2014-03-13 16:56:10 UTC
horrible horrible idea. New players have a real hang up about needing all the skill points and never being able to catch up, its a total nonsense. If everyone could just change their skills on the fly to be uber at what they wanted for that particular time of the month or fleet it would destroy a massive aspect of the game. Instant reward and gratification no choices have impact etc etc etc.

If ever anything like this or buying skill points was in the progress I would quit. It may as well be wow, lets all go out and buy a lvl 90 character or whatever as I don't want to wait.

Horrible.

Start wide, expand further, and never look back

Malrikk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2014-03-13 17:02:30 UTC
Reading everyone's discussion points on this topic is certainly interesting. Admittedly I don't have much time online in Eve, but it's becoming quite apparent that "skill" in this game is directly tied to how many skills you have, and where they are allocated.

I see veterans not liking the idea because it will give other people an edge over them, or create an environment of fair play. That is the only logical conclusion from this behavior, as it isn't a mandatory retraining every year. Even Tippia confirmed this in an earlier post
tippia wrote:
It hurts my gameplay by removing all skill progression. Once you have enough SP — after no more than a year or two — you can remap it to cover anything and everything in the game as if you had been playing for 20 years. It hurts my gameplay by turning the game into an XP/Level-grinding game rather than a game where thoughtful application of training time gives me an edge over those who weren't thoughtful.


I never really understood that. If that is truly the driving "skill" behind being a good combat pilot in Eve Online, then it's time I reevaluate some things. Even so I stand behind this idea for reasons I've already stated.
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2014-03-13 17:07:15 UTC
Malrikk wrote:
I started playing Eve a long time ago on and off, as my understanding of the game has grown my desires in-game have changed.

My skills are a cluster of clutter from mining to a plethora of various random skills. For instance mining, it was one of the first things I trained and have regretted it ever since. I would love to be able to put those skill points into something else.

I propose a skill remap, possibly a one year timer on it, and it would cost roughly 10% of your skill points as the remap is rather dangerous and memory loss has been known to happen. I believe this would balance out the remap and only the most desperate like myself would use it. Eve-Online is a complicated game, and brutal on the newbies, this would go a long way to help some of us out who made a lot of bad decisions early on.


It saddens me to see threads like this, it honestly does, but the scenario happens to a large proportion of people who just don´t get what eve is when they start, but once you get EvE its too late, so do what i did and biomass your character and its shameful traits so you can reuse your name.

If you do not want to go down that route as you may consider it extreme you can just HTFU and take responsibility of being too slow on the understanding of the game concepts and like a sentient being live with it without complaint.

Wanting to change long established game rules because of your own inadequacies is pretty lame to be brutally honest with you, the reality of whatever you do has consequences and they will forever follow you until your character gets bio massed or you quit is a selling point (or used to be) and what makes you a class above other lesser gamers.

You have not spent a lot of time on this proposal, it has the intellectual depth of a libatarian, looks like a winner, but when you actually think about what it does the true horror becomeß apparent and no sane person would consider it

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#86 - 2014-03-13 17:10:40 UTC
Malrikk wrote:

I see veterans not liking the idea because it will give other people an edge over them


Wrong.

We would have an even greater edge over new players as we could abuse this to get into whatever the new FOTM is instantly. The new player would still be getting slaughtered by us while us bittervets will be able to instantly swap into the next overpowered mess with the click of a button.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#87 - 2014-03-13 17:13:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Malrikk wrote:
Reading everyone's discussion points on this topic is certainly interesting. Admittedly I don't have much time online in Eve, but it's becoming quite apparent that "skill" in this game is directly tied to how many skills you have, and where they are allocated.
Yeah, no. If that were the case, we wouldn't have these people who take a trial alt out on day 1 and murder people to bits. The only thing that makes it “apparent” to you is your lack of time in the game — reality and history has consistently proven you wrong for over a decade now.

Quote:
I see veterans not liking the idea because it will give other people an edge over them, or create an environment of fair play.
You need to visit an optometrist then, or possibly get a prescription for some anti-hallucinant. What you're seeing is veterans disliking the idea because they understand the skill system and how the idea will utterly break it to give them massive advantages over other players, removing all semblance of fair play. This idea transforms EVE's skill system from one where “catching up” isn't even an applicable concept and where newbies will handily destroy opponents of any age into one where the only thing that matters is how high your “level” is.

Quote:
Even Tippia confirmed this in an earlier post
You mean the post that has nothing to do with being a veteran and not, but about making good decisions and not? No, it does not confirm your perception. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Quote:
If that is truly the driving "skill" behind being a good combat pilot in Eve Online, then it's time I reevaluate some things.
Goods news, then, that it isn't and has never claimed to be (other than by those who think that SP somehow matter and want to alter the skill system because they believe they can benefit from it…).
Aivo Dresden
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#88 - 2014-03-13 17:17:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Malrikk wrote:
I see veterans not liking the idea because it will give other people an edge over them, or create an environment of fair play. That is the only logical conclusion from this behavior, as it isn't a mandatory retraining every year. Even Tippia confirmed this in an earlier post

That's incorrect. There are only so many skillpoints you can put in to something. Once you've matched that you're even. That doesn't take long at all. Besides, only idiots think like that. If you think you'll suddenly have an edge because you have redistributed your skill points, you're mistaken.

Malrikk wrote:
tippia wrote:
It hurts my game play by removing all skill progression. Once you have enough SP — after no more than a year or two — you can remap it to cover anything and everything in the game as if you had been playing for 20 years. It hurts my game play by turning the game into an XP/Level-grinding game rather than a game where thoughtful application of training time gives me an edge over those who weren't thoughtful.

I never really understood that. If that is truly the driving "skill" behind being a good combat pilot in Eve Online, then it's time I reevaluate some things. Even so I stand behind this idea for reasons I've already stated.

Tippia never said that, you're just putting words in her mouth. She said that 40m-50m SP would be enough to basically instantly remap to anything you want. At that point there's no difference between character ages at all, kind of trivializing skill points.

The only thing this is on your side is impatience and desire for instant gratification. Really tell us, what is the skill you want now that you can't be bothered to train and wait for?

And yes, it is time to reevaluate some things, but not about the skill system. You should go reevaluate your game choice. If you lack patience, EVE isn't the game for you.
I Riven I
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2014-03-13 17:18:58 UTC
plex for remap
Othran
Route One
#90 - 2014-03-13 17:25:34 UTC
Mmmm yes this will benefit newer players Roll

I'm sure I couldn't (for example) dump a load of shield skills on one alt, armour on another and end up with 2 "uber-alts" for no cost at all.

The OP has no idea of what he gibbers about. End of.
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#91 - 2014-03-13 17:36:54 UTC
Malrikk wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Malrikk wrote:
Neural remap and skill point remap should remain exclusive of one another. I'm not asking for a change to neural remapping, just the addition of a skill point remap. But I don't believe it should be free, a 10% loss in skill points sounds balanced to me.

What you're asking makes attribute remaps pointless since they no longer serve any purpose. In fact, it makes attributes pointless since they no longer serve any purpose. All you do is remap for Int/mem and fill your queue with science skills that will train at a fixed 2700 SP/h (or 23,652,000 SP per year) that you then put into whatever you want. Picking one attribute combo over another is no longer relevant since your choice of skills no longer matter — just how much SP/h you can squeeze out, and that part is trivial to maximise. So your suggestion effectively removes attributes (and the ability to remap them) as meaningful game mechanics and they might as well just be cut from the game.

And no, 10% is not balanced. Bump it up to, say, 80% with an absolute minimum loss of 30M and you might approach something that would actually make it at least remotely punishing to use. But the main problem remains: it just outright removes large portions of the game. To use the age-old copypasta to highlight the most glaring problems with SP remapping…

It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.

Quote:
It's completely optional, so how does it hurt your gameplay?
It hurts my gameplay by removing all skill progression. Once you have enough SP — after no more than a year or two — you can remap it to cover anything and everything in the game as if you had been playing for 20 years. It hurts my gameplay by turning the game into an XP/Level-grinding game rather than a game where thoughtful application of training time gives me an edge over those who weren't thoughtful.

Quote:
And why would I ask them to remove skills outright?
Because that's the direct consequence of what you're suggesting: that time spent going down a certain training path no longer counts towards that particular path but any path of equal length. Skill choices no longer distinguish characters and they just become infinitely mutable piles of SP, where more SP is always better.




It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
False, this does not remove the point of having skills to begin with.

It removes the point of having attributes.
We can already remap attributes, would you say that this removes the point of having them as well?

It removes attribute implants from the game.
How does it do this? There will always be something to train.

It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
Once a year at the cost of a % of your skill points?

It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
A characters "uniqueness" doesn't derive from how you spent your time training as you were AFK, doing real life things, etc.
Your actions in the game derive a characters uniqueness.


It removes planning and choice and consequences.
I would argue that the real consequence should come from actual in-game choices, like gameplay. But there is a reason I want a 12 month timer on this.

It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
Same as above.

It kills character trading.
Character skill points would still be there, if anything it would make high skill point characters more valuable

It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
At the same time, the people that are newer to the game will have an opportunity to play with the veterans if they so choose to without worrying about a fake progression wall.

It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.
How is this "catching up"? This isn't a free allocation of skill points. They still need to be earned.

I would have to agree with Malrikk here.

It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
LOL what??
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#92 - 2014-03-13 17:38:58 UTC
Othran wrote:
Mmmm yes this will benefit newer players Roll

I'm sure I couldn't (for example) dump a load of shield skills on one alt, armour on another and end up with 2 "uber-alts" for no cost at all.

The OP has no idea of what he gibbers about. End of.

I may be wrong but dont think he is looking to divide them up. Just a remap same pilot.
Invisusira
Escalated.
Project Gungnir.
#93 - 2014-03-13 17:39:03 UTC
The beauty of EVE is that there are no wasted skillpoints. If you want to train for something new, train for something new. That's all there is to it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#94 - 2014-03-13 17:40:39 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
I would have to agree with Malrikk here.

It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
LOL what??

What is the purpose of having skills and skill training?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#95 - 2014-03-13 17:47:19 UTC
Invisusira wrote:
The beauty of EVE is that there are no wasted skillpoints. If you want to train for something new, train for something new. That's all there is to it.


QFT.....

No matter where you are in the game, if you want to fly a new ship or partake in a new career, you can ALWAYS train into it.

Skill Remaps do nothing but let people gain access to those areas more quickly. Sorry, but EvE's skill system is about progression, don't manhandle it for your instant gratification needs.

PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#96 - 2014-03-13 17:51:06 UTC
Fundamentally, it wouldn't change all that much. In the long run all it would do is encourage bad decision making habits in newer players.

Likewise, anyone that plays eve for any reasonable length of time will quickly realize that lack of isk and lack of friends/allies are the real limiting factors in what ships you can fly, not lack of sp.
Invisusira
Escalated.
Project Gungnir.
#97 - 2014-03-13 18:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Invisusira
Uh... Malrikk, by the way, if you have some arguments, you may want to actually present them.

It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
False, this does not remove the point of having skills to begin with.

"False because I say it's false."


It removes the point of having attributes.
We can already remap attributes, would you say that this removes the point of having them as well?

"Here is a reference to something that exists in game, also a rhetorical question?"


It removes attribute implants from the game.
How does it do this? There will always be something to train.

"Statement that has almost nothing to do with the point presented."


It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
Once a year at the cost of a % of your skill points?

"Another rhetorical question?"

(If you have a point to make, use a counter statement. Don't flippantly ask questions, it greatly diminishes the credibility of you as a person to make a rational argument.)

It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
A characters "uniqueness" doesn't derive from how you spent your time training as you were AFK, doing real life things, etc.
Your actions in the game derive a characters uniqueness.

(Your personal opinion on a debatable subject. Better, but also not being open-minded. There are few - if any - things in this game that define your character more than its skillset. A few well-known players have their names, but those are the exception, not the rule.)

It removes planning and choice and consequences.
I would argue that the real consequence should come from actual in-game choices, like gameplay. But there is a reason I want a 12 month timer on this.[/i]
"Calling something that is an in-game choice not an in-game choice."


It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
Same as above.

"I literally couldn't even think of an argument."


It kills character trading.
Character skill points would still be there, if anything it would make high skill point characters more valuable

"I am now making things up based on wild, unfounded, nu-researched, and profoundly unintelligent claims."


It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
At the same time, the people that are newer to the game will have an opportunity to play with the veterans if they so choose to without worrying about a fake progression wall.

(I honestly don't even know what you're talking about here. A "new" player losing X% of his SP from remapping would be better off taking the entire 1 day to train whatever it is the "veteran" player wants him to train.)

It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.
How is this "catching up"? This isn't a free allocation of skill points. They still need to be earned.

"I did not correctly read the question I am trying to respond to."


I know internet forums are not really widely regarded as "intelligent debate platforms," but come on man. If you legitimately have something you want to discuss and are thinking of the game as a whole and not just yourself (man I personally used a bunch of SP towards X and I think it would be cool if we could remap), then talk about it! If you're just thinking of things You Think Are Cool For You, it's probably best left off the boards.
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#98 - 2014-03-13 18:08:15 UTC
Well, the OP certainly proves lack of a functioning brain is not a terminal condition anymore.

I stand corrected, oh miracle of civilization.
Col Arran
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-03-13 18:51:26 UTC
I cannot agree with this idea one on merit, Character Bazaar.

Instead of looking for a character that has the skills a pilot needs it would just turn into "I have more SP than the other guy you can remap it all anyway so buy me"
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#100 - 2014-03-13 19:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Malrikk wrote:
I see veterans not liking the idea because it will give other people an edge over them, or create an environment of fair play. That is the only logical conclusion from this behavior, as it isn't a mandatory retraining every year.

But it would do the complete opposite. What?
dadar wrote:
i am all for this myself it would fix the major downside that new players have.

New players don't have enough SP for this feature to be useful to them.

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