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Dev blog: Worlds With A World - A Message Through Time

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Author
Sturmwolke
#21 - 2014-03-06 21:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
Ditto, the same question popped up in my head. 25 years is a long time for current storage technologies.
Solid state with no failover backups like the disc on the Pioneer/Voyager probes? Hmm...I'm skeptical.

Also, the capsule material itself should offer protection from EMP and possibly stray radiation (you never know).
Solid metal should not be an issue, but it's stone or other materials ... then you need a Faraday cage mesh.
Lirbank
OMICHRON INDUSTRIES
#22 - 2014-03-07 06:12:30 UTC
Why not store it in DNA? They have stored Mona Lisa and Vivaldi (I think it was Vivaldi or Bash) in the DNA code. And DNA has proven to store information quite a long time...

We play a Futuristic game so why not use futuristic technology and long lasting storage?
Nlex
Domini Canium
#23 - 2014-03-07 09:04:37 UTC
This solid state storage device has nothing to do with flash memory, obviously. It's a number of stone tablets with laser-etched binary on them. Thus solving both interface and longevity problems!
Janden Rynd
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-03-07 22:04:59 UTC
I'm not sure why I'm doing this, I really should just let CCP fall on their face here; after all, EVE is a harsh place, right?

Still, in order to make sure people understand how big of a mistake this is, allow me to present a little lesson in physics:

(Disclaimer: I've gotten in trouble before by making assumptions about people's level of understanding. To avoid that, I'm starting out with the most simple principles. This is not meant as an insult to anyone's intelligence; rather it's just me covering my bases)

All substances in this world are made up of tiny atoms. Stable atoms are made up of a number of negatively charged electrons which orbit an equal number of positively charged protons. An electrical charge is created when electrons are moved from one atom to another, causing an imbalance. An atom with an excess of electrons will be negatively charged, and an atom missing electrons will be positively charged.

The thing is that atoms don't like to be unbalanced; so if an atom has more electrons than protons, some of those electrons will eventually move back to an atom that is missing electrons. The rate at which these electrons relocate is dependent largely upon what type of atom they are attached to, and what sort of material they have to pass through. If a large enough charge builds up, this movement of electrons can be very dramatic and quick, such as with lightning. But when the electrons don't have to move through a heavy insulator (like air), they can slowly bleed off without much fanfare.

"That's great Mr. Wizard, but what does that have to do with an SSD as a long-term storage device?"

I'm glad you asked. You see, an SSD is made up of an array of flash memory chips. Flash memory stores data by putting different amounts of electrical charge on lots of individual memory cells. Essentially, an amount of electrons are pushed onto a cell. How many electrons are on a given cell, and therefore how much electrical charge the cell has, translates into a specific data value. So when you go to read information off of the SSD, you are really just checking to see how much electrical charge is on each cell, and then interpreting that charge as data.

The problem is though that, as I said before, atoms don't like to have an unbalanced charge. The electrons pushed into the flash memory cells will gradually move off into the surrounding material. If enough of these electrons migrate off of the cells, it can cause a significant enough of a change in the data value stored in those cells. When this happens, you get data corruption. The information stored on the SSD will no longer be the same as what you originally put on it. In most cases, this means that files become corrupted and can no longer be accessed.

So how long does this take? Well, as I indicated before, the most reliable flash memory on the market is only rated for five years maximum data retention. That assumes of course that you are starting with fresh memory with little to no use; the more the memory gets used, the faster it can degrade. Some memory is only rated for one year of retention after regular use.

There are of course ways to extend this. If the memory is erased, and the data re-written, the charge on the individual cells is removed and reset. This refreshes the memory, essentially putting the full charge back where it was, and buying more time before that charge decays. This can be done manually, by backing up a drive, wiping it, and then reprogramming it from the backup. More recent SSDs have refresh algorithms built in, and they will periodically move data around to different locations in order to extend the storage life.

The obvious problem in this specific case is that in order for any of this data refresh stuff to work, the SSD has to be plugged in to an active computer. If the drive isn't on, and it's not connected to an actively running system, it won't be able to refresh itself. So just putting an SSD under a rock isn't going to help. Unless of course it is wired to a really long SATA cable connecting it to a computer being run in a nearby building.

You can also do redundant data storage by writing multiple copies of the same data to the SSD. In doing this, the copies can be compared against each other, and as long as the same pieces of data haven't become corrupted in each copy, there's a good chance you can recover the complete data after it's been partially corrupted. Still, 25 years is a long time, and I would be highly doubtful that any reasonable amount of redundancy would stand a chance of surviving the kind of charge loss and corruption that would occur after two and a half decades.

The bottom line is that SSDs are a storage device built for performance, not longevity. They can access data at tremendous speeds compared to traditional HDDs, which makes them great for high speed applications like gaming. They are very durable; having no moving parts means that you can shake them and knock them around without damaging heads or spinning platters, which makes them great for mobile devices like laptops or tablets. But they are most definitely not designed for long-term archival data storage, and as such they are an incredibly poor choice for this type of time capsule project.

Seriously CCP, do your homework next time; you'll look less foolish that way.
Sabrina Scatterbrain
United Souls Research And Development
#25 - 2014-03-09 01:46:01 UTC
$20 to $40 to put a message in a time capsule? How about you go @#@%$#@%^# and then %*^%%(*%(, and his brother can ^(^$&%$$$* while the donkey ^%)(*%$*$.
Angeleh
Silverflames
#26 - 2014-03-09 09:26:06 UTC
If the time capsule was meant to last a thousand years I could see a point.

25 years from now? I am just gonna tell people myself.

50 years from now? Internet as it is today will still be around and anyone can just read there. My own data will still be laying around on a couple redundant HDs as well.

300 years from now? I will be gone, anything I pass on to friends and family will be scattered at best and for the most part probably lost / thrown away. Might have some vailidity to pay for having a say in some time-capsule ceremoni.

1000 years from now? I would find it fun to leave a note about how I experienced gaming a millenia ago.
lx Chel
RA Co
#27 - 2014-03-09 16:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: lx Chel
Sabrina Scatterbrain wrote:
$20 to $40 to put a message in a time capsule? How about you go @#@%$#@%^# and then %*^%%(*%(, and his brother can ^(^$&%$$$* while the donkey ^%)(*%$*$.


OMG if you don´t have money or don´t want to spend it then STFU!

I donate 25-30eur to wikimedia or some RD project and I don´t get anything back!, I pay 5$ every month to support freeDNS!
Thead Enco
Domheimed
#28 - 2014-03-10 16:34:05 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
The reception of the Monument within the community has been overwhelming. Due to the fact that there are still tickets streaming in with questions and names, we have decided to do another snap shot of the player base on March 31st to add to the one we have already made. This means there is now an extra month of time to get your name added to list of players that is to be memorialized.

In addition to that, CCP Falcon also details how to get a message through time - a text message or a video that will be added to a time capsule that is to be sealed inside the structure itself on a solid state drive.

Here you can read all about it.

o7


Won't revamp POS's due to limited "resources" hiring "community reps". CCP has no clear vision with what they actually want to do with Dust other than providing a token powerpoint of things maybe to come, which then gets thrown in the "soon(TM)" bucket to never see the light of day. Then you guys come up with this ****? Seriously is this a way to run a business? Inconsistent and all over the map....
Thead Enco
Domheimed
#29 - 2014-03-10 16:41:02 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
Ditto, the same question popped up in my head. 25 years is a long time for current storage technologies.
Solid state with no failover backups like the disc on the Pioneer/Voyager probes? Hmm...I'm skeptical.

Also, the capsule material itself should offer protection from EMP and possibly stray radiation (you never know).
Solid metal should not be an issue, but it's stone or other materials ... then you need a Faraday cage mesh.


I think they need to batphone "Walter Bishop" for the faraday cage.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#30 - 2014-03-11 15:54:09 UTC
... Buys 25 years worth of PLEX.... puts message in Character Sheet * BIO *... because there's no guarantee whatsoever that the game, Iceland, CCP or any other essential part of this grand adventure will be in existence by then.

But if it does survive, then so will my character sheet. Blink






"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )

Tici Toc
Posique Corp
#31 - 2014-03-12 16:01:58 UTC
Ah, now I know what happen to my bio that disappeared so many years ago!

Seriously, CCP, simply print the messages on archival paper using a impact printer and store them in a argon filled container.
Bronden Neopatus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-03-15 20:38:59 UTC
Janden Rynd wrote:
I'm not sure why I'm doing this, I really should just let CCP fall on their face here; after all, EVE is a harsh place, right?

Still, in order to make sure people understand how big of a mistake this is, allow me to present a little lesson in physics:

(Disclaimer: I've gotten in trouble before by making assumptions about people's level of understanding. To avoid that, I'm starting out with the most simple principles. This is not meant as an insult to anyone's intelligence; rather it's just me covering my bases)

All substances in this world are made up of tiny atoms. Stable atoms are made up of a number of negatively charged electrons which orbit an equal number of positively charged protons. An electrical charge is created when electrons are moved from one atom to another, causing an imbalance. An atom with an excess of electrons will be negatively charged, and an atom missing electrons will be positively charged.

The thing is that atoms don't like to be unbalanced; so if an atom has more electrons than protons, some of those electrons will eventually move back to an atom that is missing electrons. The rate at which these electrons relocate is dependent largely upon what type of atom they are attached to, and what sort of material they have to pass through. If a large enough charge builds up, this movement of electrons can be very dramatic and quick, such as with lightning. But when the electrons don't have to move through a heavy insulator (like air), they can slowly bleed off without much fanfare.

"That's great Mr. Wizard, but what does that have to do with an SSD as a long-term storage device?"

I'm glad you asked. You see, an SSD is made up of an array of flash memory chips. Flash memory stores data by putting different amounts of electrical charge on lots of individual memory cells. Essentially, an amount of electrons are pushed onto a cell. How many electrons are on a given cell, and therefore how much electrical charge the cell has, translates into a specific data value. So when you go to read information off of the SSD, you are really just checking to see how much electrical charge is on each cell, and then interpreting that charge as data.

The problem is though that, as I said before, atoms don't like to have an unbalanced charge. The electrons pushed into the flash memory cells will gradually move off into the surrounding material. If enough of these electrons migrate off of the cells, it can cause a significant enough of a change in the data value stored in those cells. When this happens, you get data corruption. The information stored on the SSD will no longer be the same as what you originally put on it. In most cases, this means that files become corrupted and can no longer be accessed.

So how long does this take? Well, as I indicated before, the most reliable flash memory on the market is only rated for five years maximum data retention. That assumes of course that you are starting with fresh memory with little to no use; the more the memory gets used, the faster it can degrade. Some memory is only rated for one year of retention after regular use.

There are of course ways to extend this. If the memory is erased, and the data re-written, the charge on the individual cells is removed and reset. This refreshes the memory, essentially putting the full charge back where it was, and buying more time before that charge decays. This can be done manually, by backing up a drive, wiping it, and then reprogramming it from the backup. More recent SSDs have refresh algorithms built in, and they will periodically move data around to different locations in order to extend the storage life.

The obvious problem in this specific case is that in order for any of this data refresh stuff to work, the SSD has to be plugged in to an active computer. If the drive isn't on, and it's not connected to an actively running system, it won't be able to refresh itself. So just putting an SSD under a rock isn't going to help. Unless of course it is wired to a really long SATA cable connecting it to a computer being run in a nearby building.

You can also do redundant data storage by writing multiple copies of the same data to the SSD. In doing this, the copies can be compared against each other, and as long as the same pieces of data haven't become corrupted in each copy, there's a good chance you can recover the complete data after it's been partially corrupted. Still, 25 years is a long time, and I would be highly doubtful that any reasonable amount of redundancy would stand a chance of surviving the kind of charge loss and corruption that would occur after two and a half decades.

The bottom line is that SSDs are a storage device built for performance, not longevity. They can access data at tremendous speeds compared to traditional HDDs, which makes them great for high speed applications like gaming. They are very durable; having no moving parts means that you can shake them and knock them around without damaging heads or spinning platters, which makes them great for mobile devices like laptops or tablets. But they are most definitely not designed for long-term archival data storage, and as such they are an incredibly poor choice for this type of time capsule project.

Seriously CCP, do your homework next time; you'll look less foolish that way.


Very interesting question.... I guess that means that the information within a SSD can't last past 5 years unless it's turned on regularly, isn't that? I wonder how does CCP plan to deal with that...

BTW, from my own experience, regular HD are a lot more durable, I've seen a HD 12 years old work right after plugging it to a computer.

She strutted into my office wearing a dress that clung to her like Saran Wrap to a sloppily butchered pork knuckle, bone and sinew jutting and lurching asymmetrically beneath its folds, the tightness exaggerating the granularity of the suet and causing what little palatable meat there was to sweat, its transparency the thief of imagination.

Grimster
Reikoku
Plug N Play
#33 - 2014-03-20 16:20:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimster
NVM reading comprehension failure

Move along... Move along...
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#34 - 2014-03-22 05:49:34 UTC
Angeleh wrote:
If the time capsule was meant to last a thousand years I could see a point.

25 years from now? I am just gonna tell people myself.

50 years from now? Internet as it is today will still be around and anyone can just read there. My own data will still be laying around on a couple redundant HDs as well.

300 years from now? I will be gone, anything I pass on to friends and family will be scattered at best and for the most part probably lost / thrown away. Might have some vailidity to pay for having a say in some time-capsule ceremoni.

1000 years from now? I would find it fun to leave a note about how I experienced gaming a millenia ago.


You're assuming the world will be in a civilized state in 25 years...
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