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WTF is up with damage resist mods?

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Rei Kuroki
Electric Sheep Machinery
Caladrius Alliance
#1 - 2014-03-11 13:54:19 UTC
I have just realized that damage resist mods does not give the stated resitance boost for some damage types, NOT counting in stacking penalty.

Lets say with an Adaptive invul2, which in the description says to give 30% bonus to all damage types.
When you switch it on in space, with only one of it and no other resist mods or rigs, it gives 30% resist bonus only to EM, and less and less towards Explosive, giving only about 15% on Explosive.

Is this the way it's supposed to be? Then what is going on?

Somebody please explain to me :S
Entilarza
HS Holdings
#2 - 2014-03-11 13:59:25 UTC
Didnt look into that yet, but is it 30% from total dmg without mods?
0% EM Res => 0.3*100% = 30%
50% Expl Res => 0.3*50% = 15%
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-03-11 13:59:37 UTC
U calculate it the other way around. Lets say u have 50% resist, that means 50% damage will still apply. Add another 50% hardener and 50% of the damage that comes thru is removed > new resists 75% (not 100%)
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#4 - 2014-03-11 14:01:18 UTC
don't quote on me because I find it from random poster in other thread

Resist reduce what remain rather than add to resist.

example:
100 EM damage against shield do 100% damage due to 0% resist
Invul Field reduce it to 70 damage, so 30%

Same scenario but with Explosive
100 Exp damage against shield do 50% of damage due to 50% resist.
Invul reduce it to 35 damage. Because Exp damage is reduce from first resist, so second resist reduce damage which is 50 damage instead 100.
so 15% reduce from Invul field for exp
Dreadchain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-03-11 14:01:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dreadchain
Let's say you have 20% base EM resist and apply a 50% hardener. Your resist jumps up 40%, up to 60%.

With the hardener offline, you'd take 80 damage from a 100 EM damage shot. With the hardener on, you take 40, thus reducing the original damage to half (50%).

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Celeste Benal
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-03-11 15:16:38 UTC
Resist modules are not stacking penalized. However, resists added to a certain damage type are reduced by the current resist percentage. Otherwise, it would be hilariously easy to get resists beyond 100% on tech 2 and 3 ships.

So adding a 30% bonus on top of a 25% resist will get you .30*(1-.25)+.30 = .525 = 52.5% resist, not 55%.

Also, inb4 moved to ships and modules.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2014-03-11 15:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Celeste Benal wrote:
Resist modules are not stacking penalized. However, resists added to a certain damage type are reduced by the current resist percentage. Otherwise, it would be hilariously easy to get resists beyond 100% on tech 2 and 3 ships.

So adding a 30% bonus on top of a 25% resist will get you .30*(1-.25)+.30 = .525 = 52.5% resist, not 55%.

Also, inb4 moved to ships and modules.


Resists are penalized, unless they're explicitly stated not to. Like the damage control module.


Damage is applied as follows (which leads to the resists)
Assuming you're using modules which don't have a stacking penalty (to keep the math simple):

Damage of 100

hull resist of 50% reduces that to 50.
Adaptive invuln of 30% reduces that to 35 .
Damage control of 20% reduces that to 28.


This equates to a 72% resist.



so it's

X * (1- Resist 1) * (1 - resist 2) * (1 - resist 3)

100 * 0.5 * 0.7 * 0.8
28 damage remains.


The stacking penalty would be applied at to the resist, before it's subtracted from the 1 to become a multiplier.

This equates to a 72% resist

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Rei Kuroki
Electric Sheep Machinery
Caladrius Alliance
#8 - 2014-03-11 15:32:59 UTC
Thanks for all the answers, so that was whats going on :O

EVE math is really confusing at some parts :S
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-03-11 16:09:04 UTC
Well, think about it. If it was a hard "I attach this module and gain 50% resistance absolute" then it would be absolutely trivial to make many ships completely immune to all damage. At absolute most, you'd need two hardeners - 50+50 = 100% damage resistance = you take no damage at all from that damage type.

The "x% of the remainder" system means that no matter what you do, your ship will always take some damage. As it should be.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#10 - 2014-03-11 16:11:03 UTC
Rei Kuroki wrote:
Thanks for all the answers, so that was whats going on :O

EVE math is really confusing at some parts :S



Sooner or later you'll realize it actually makes way more sense than the math in any other game. You just need to remember that everything multiplies.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-03-11 16:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Batelle wrote:
Rei Kuroki wrote:
Thanks for all the answers, so that was whats going on :O

EVE math is really confusing at some parts :S



Sooner or later you'll realize it actually makes way more sense than the math in any other game. You just need to remember that everything multiplies.

Multiplication is hard though...

OP, just think of it this way. Each module reduces its percentage of the remaining damage after other resistances are applied.
Also, I've heard that damage controls work differently for calculating resistances. I can't confirm this though.

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Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#12 - 2014-03-11 17:10:57 UTC
Go with signature and speed tank.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-03-11 17:15:30 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Rei Kuroki wrote:
Thanks for all the answers, so that was whats going on :O

EVE math is really confusing at some parts :S



Sooner or later you'll realize it actually makes way more sense than the math in any other game. You just need to remember that everything multiplies.

some stuff is divided

200 dps with a 25% rof mod is 200/0.75 = 266, not 250

that is, if i'm remembering it right
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-03-11 17:21:49 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Celeste Benal wrote:
Resist modules are not stacking penalized. However, resists added to a certain damage type are reduced by the current resist percentage. Otherwise, it would be hilariously easy to get resists beyond 100% on tech 2 and 3 ships.

So adding a 30% bonus on top of a 25% resist will get you .30*(1-.25)+.30 = .525 = 52.5% resist, not 55%.

Also, inb4 moved to ships and modules.


Resists are penalized, unless they're explicitly stated not to. Like the damage control module.

although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative?
Serene Repose
#15 - 2014-03-11 17:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Go with signature and speed tank.
When will they learn? WHEN will they learn? Straight

Anyhoo...the confusion arises when mixing "damage" and "resistance" figures in the expression without some sort of accomodation. Also, "resistance" doesn't equate to "adding" something TO the ship.

It's more of a conceptual thing. Once you're sure if you're taking or giving, the math becomes easy again.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#16 - 2014-03-11 17:58:09 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:

although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative?


Diminishing returns is exactly what it is. Adding a new mod will never make you worse off in that particular area. Damage control is not additive, as nearly nothing is actually additive. The way it works is that all stacking penalized mods go on "a stack," sorted by the strongest first. Then diminishing returns apply starting from the second effect (not necessarily module) on the stack. Non-stacking penalized mods are not on the stack, and apply their full bonus. The exception is the damage control and reactive armor hardener, which are both not stacking penalized, but when used together, are considered stacked together, with the weaker bonus getting the 87% penalty. Note that things on the stack are effects, not a module itself.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#17 - 2014-03-11 18:06:08 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:

although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative?


Diminishing returns is exactly what it is. Adding a new mod will never make you worse off in that particular area. Damage control is not additive, as nearly nothing is actually additive. The way it works is that all stacking penalized mods go on "a stack," sorted by the strongest first. Then diminishing returns apply starting from the second effect (not necessarily module) on the stack. Non-stacking penalized mods are not on the stack, and apply their full bonus. The exception is the damage control and reactive armor hardener, which are both not stacking penalized, but when used together, are considered stacked together, with the weaker bonus getting the 87% penalty. Note that things on the stack are effects, not a module itself.



It's because, behind the scenes, they apply their damage reduction in different ways.

you have resists, from the regular hardeners, plates, etc.

And you have a damage resonance from the damage control and the reactive armour hardener.

so they get stuck in stacks based on that, then the penalties are applies, per stack.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#18 - 2014-03-11 18:09:43 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Celeste Benal wrote:
Resist modules are not stacking penalized. However, resists added to a certain damage type are reduced by the current resist percentage. Otherwise, it would be hilariously easy to get resists beyond 100% on tech 2 and 3 ships.

So adding a 30% bonus on top of a 25% resist will get you .30*(1-.25)+.30 = .525 = 52.5% resist, not 55%.

Also, inb4 moved to ships and modules.


Resists are penalized, unless they're explicitly stated not to. Like the damage control module.

although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative?


There is the native penalty involved that this thread covered and the arbitrary penalty added to curb multiplier stacking. Wasn't really needed for resists, but they did it anyway.

Resists are double penalized, nothing else gets that treatment.

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I invented Tiericide
Real Serious PVPer
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-03-11 18:16:01 UTC
Noticed this the other day when I was melting targets too fast.

[b] Serious about being serious- Putting the "P "into PVP one fight at a time.  MUFC[/b]
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#20 - 2014-03-11 18:55:42 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Celeste Benal wrote:
Resist modules are not stacking penalized. However, resists added to a certain damage type are reduced by the current resist percentage. Otherwise, it would be hilariously easy to get resists beyond 100% on tech 2 and 3 ships.

So adding a 30% bonus on top of a 25% resist will get you .30*(1-.25)+.30 = .525 = 52.5% resist, not 55%.

Also, inb4 moved to ships and modules.


Resists are penalized, unless they're explicitly stated not to. Like the damage control module.

although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative?


There is the native penalty involved that this thread covered and the arbitrary penalty added to curb multiplier stacking. Wasn't really needed for resists, but they did it anyway.

Resists are double penalized, nothing else gets that treatment.


Resists aren't "double penalised".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

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