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A Bridge to Nowhere...

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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2014-03-09 18:56:54 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
At least it's remotely possible to drop on fleets these days. Pipebombing, ratter ganking, catching stragglers, they'd all ceaseto exist if you needed to jump in a titan to bridge.

These only cease to exist when you are operating in a larger area than you can project your power in. It would then be restricted to areas where you have a presence. You are basically explaining why current magnitude of power projection is a issue.



Would you care to explain how one could hotdrop a ratter in Deklein if doing so required putting at least a black ops on the field before you could do anything?
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#22 - 2014-03-09 19:00:29 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Would you care to explain how one could hotdrop a ratter in Deklein if doing so required putting at least a black ops on the field before you could do anything?

Not at all. Hotdropping random ratters shouldn't be possible without some planning for a trap or having a presence in the area beforehand.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#23 - 2014-03-09 19:41:37 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Would you care to explain how one could hotdrop a ratter in Deklein if doing so required putting at least a black ops on the field before you could do anything?

Not at all. Hotdropping random ratters shouldn't be possible without some planning for a trap or having a presence in the area beforehand.


I think I and a hell of a lot of other people are going to have to disagree with that one.
Given the intel provided by local, the only ratters that get caught are those that

A: Continue ratting when nuets come into system because they are not paying attention.
B: Rat with a cloaky camper in local.
C: Quickly go back to the same site after a gang/scout has passed through.

The very last thing ratters need is significant nerfs to Blops to make their intel rich ratting environment even easier, even safer, and less risky to do things like go afk.

As for the initial idea, I'm against that as well. Huge coalltiions can still afford to form massive travel chains with hundreds of people, caps and subcaps to move titans along with the moving force with relative safety. Small groups cannot.

It also has major issues with enforing blueballing any fight you might potentially lose, since cynoing in and losing the fight also means losing a 100+ bil titan, and no sane fleet will enter through a heavily camped gate with an enemy fleet at their optimal. To quote myself from another thread with similar intended effects:

Anhenka wrote:
Cyno or capital changes that prevent another fleet from entering a camped system with ease in a non cynojammed system result in fights that don't happen, because the logistical inability to quickly get enough people into system to have a reasonable fight means that you either need to try and form up hours and hours in advance to make sure you are first in system (completely unfun) or don't form up at all (no fun there, for either side).

This is a game, the PvP'rs are here to PvP. Changes without clear purpose that deter fighting on a large scale due to giving one side an overwhelming advantage, or because the logistical effort required to get a fleet into a system multiplying by a factor of 10 or more, are inherently toxic to the game, especially to smaller groups without dozens of titans.
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-03-10 00:01:42 UTC
A simple start would be requiring Titans to be X meters away from any structures before being able to open a bridge.

Otherwise, the ship mooring for a "fleet jump" is kinda cool and I would be for it. Something like all subcaps can moor to a titan, Cruisers and below can moor to Carriers/Super Carriers and Recons/Bombers/CovOps can moor to a BlOps. It could atleast be an interesting option to look at.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#25 - 2014-03-10 05:00:22 UTC
Any titan that opens a bridge should absolutely be required to go through that bridge.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#26 - 2014-03-10 19:38:36 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Any titan that opens a bridge should absolutely be required to go through that bridge.



I was all for this at first. It was pointed out to me though, the actual effect this would have is ruinous. People wouldn't bridge fleets unless they had the system the Titan would end up in completely secure, but if the system is secure why would they need to bridge in a subcap fleet? The end result is that people would end up using jump gates for subcap fleets and Sov warfare would return to "whoever gets their guys in system first wins". Any Titan balance has to bear in mind how risk averse corps are with their titans. Finding a balance between reasonable safety but still getting people to get their titans all the way out of the forcefield is always going to be hard.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#27 - 2014-03-10 19:56:27 UTC
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Any titan that opens a bridge should absolutely be required to go through that bridge.



I was all for this at first. It was pointed out to me though, the actual effect this would have is ruinous. People wouldn't bridge fleets unless they had the system the Titan would end up in completely secure, but if the system is secure why would they need to bridge in a subcap fleet? The end result is that people would end up using jump gates for subcap fleets and Sov warfare would return to "whoever gets their guys in system first wins". Any Titan balance has to bear in mind how risk averse corps are with their titans. Finding a balance between reasonable safety but still getting people to get their titans all the way out of the forcefield is always going to be hard.

There is no balance between "reasonable safety" and getting the titan out of the POS. If a change to bridging mechanics makes it so that people are too afraid to bridge at all, those who take the risk and do bridge will have a massive advantage over those who don't. That's a perfectly reasonable state of play to aim for.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2014-03-10 20:32:55 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Any titan that opens a bridge should absolutely be required to go through that bridge.



I was all for this at first. It was pointed out to me though, the actual effect this would have is ruinous. People wouldn't bridge fleets unless they had the system the Titan would end up in completely secure, but if the system is secure why would they need to bridge in a subcap fleet? The end result is that people would end up using jump gates for subcap fleets and Sov warfare would return to "whoever gets their guys in system first wins". Any Titan balance has to bear in mind how risk averse corps are with their titans. Finding a balance between reasonable safety but still getting people to get their titans all the way out of the forcefield is always going to be hard.

There is no balance between "reasonable safety" and getting the titan out of the POS. If a change to bridging mechanics makes it so that people are too afraid to bridge at all, those who take the risk and do bridge will have a massive advantage over those who don't. That's a perfectly reasonable state of play to aim for.




Forcing the Titan to warp with the subcap fleet will result in no one doing it. So no one will get a "Massive Advantage". It is adding risk with no gain and no reasonable way to mitigate the risks.
Pew Terror
All of it
#29 - 2014-03-10 21:10:53 UTC
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Any titan that opens a bridge should absolutely be required to go through that bridge.



I was all for this at first. It was pointed out to me though, the actual effect this would have is ruinous. People wouldn't bridge fleets unless they had the system the Titan would end up in completely secure, but if the system is secure why would they need to bridge in a subcap fleet? The end result is that people would end up using jump gates for subcap fleets and Sov warfare would return to "whoever gets their guys in system first wins". Any Titan balance has to bear in mind how risk averse corps are with their titans. Finding a balance between reasonable safety but still getting people to get their titans all the way out of the forcefield is always going to be hard.

There is no balance between "reasonable safety" and getting the titan out of the POS. If a change to bridging mechanics makes it so that people are too afraid to bridge at all, those who take the risk and do bridge will have a massive advantage over those who don't. That's a perfectly reasonable state of play to aim for.




Forcing the Titan to warp with the subcap fleet will result in no one doing it. So no one will get a "Massive Advantage". It is adding risk with no gain and no reasonable way to mitigate the risks.


Adding a risk to a riskless endevour kinda entails the unmitigatable risk. Bububut i wanna keep my titan 100% safe in this POS isnt a really good counterargument.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#30 - 2014-03-10 21:15:05 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
I have often thought about this myself and would like to know others' opinions on the subject. Why is it that Titans and Black Ops can create a "bridge" with only 1 end? Surely a real bridge requires 2 ends, otherwise it doesn't go anywhere does it.


Jump to beacon. open a bridge to where you came from.

Quote:
How would it affect the game if Jump Bridges needed 2 bridge capable ships at either end to make them work?


It would result in a lot more titan/blops deaths, or just a lot less bridging.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#31 - 2014-03-10 21:17:33 UTC
Pew Terror wrote:

Adding a risk to a riskless endevour kinda entails the unmitigatable risk. Bububut i wanna keep my titan 100% safe in this POS isnt a really good counterargument.


"But nobody will use a titan to bridge into a system if there is even the tinest chance of them losing a fight, thus increasing the prevalence of massive blobbing at a 10:1 ratios and the horrible effect of forcing everyone to try and show up hours in advance to prevent being massacred while going through a gate which btw is an EXTREMELY unfun tactic." is a perfectly good counterargument.
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-03-10 21:28:08 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Pew Terror wrote:

Adding a risk to a riskless endevour kinda entails the unmitigatable risk. Bububut i wanna keep my titan 100% safe in this POS isnt a really good counterargument.


"But nobody will use a titan to bridge into a system if there is even the tinest chance of them losing a fight, thus increasing the prevalence of massive blobbing at a 10:1 ratios and the horrible effect of forcing everyone to try and show up hours in advance to prevent being massacred while going through a gate which btw is an EXTREMELY unfun tactic." is a perfectly good counterargument.



^^^^This^^^^

Adding risk is a good thing, adding it in a way that will completely prevent people from taking that risk is not.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#33 - 2014-03-10 23:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
So imagine a world where you have to risk your titan in order to bridge. The argument many of you have put forward is that nobody would take that risk and titans would therefore become useless.

Here's my counter-argument. If titans became useless there would be a lot of characters stuck in useless ships. Nobody would want to buy the now useless ships so the only way to make use of those characters would be to use the titans regardless of the risk. The only risk would be losing the so-called "useless" titan, but how can it be a risk at all if the titan is "useless"? Once that idea catches on, everyone with a titan starts using it again. Suddenly titans aren't so useless after all...

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#34 - 2014-03-10 23:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
So imagine a world where you have to risk your titan in order to bridge. The argument many of you have put forward is that nobody would take that risk and titans would therefore become useless.

Here's my counter-argument. If titans became useless there would be a lot of characters stuck in useless ships. Nobody would want to buy the now useless ships so the only way to make use of those characters would be to use the titans regardless of the risk. The only risk would be losing the so-called "useless" titan, but how can it be a risk at all if the titan is "useless"? Once that idea catches on, everyone with a titan starts using it again. Suddenly titans aren't so useless after all...

That sort of circular argument will convince nobody.

It's not of great use, so I must lose it, therefore it should be used in situations where it is likely to die, instead of waiting for CCP to un-supernerf the ship class. Whut?

P.S. Titan pilots who get a titan do so with the understanding that they will likely always be used exclusively for the purpose, and to abandon all hope of using them for anything else. There is no drive to lose a 120 Bil isk ship in order to recover the use of a char worth 30-60 billion on the character Bazzar.

Titan's are frequently considered corp or alliance level assets, not personal. And regardless of the ownership or cost, the sheer value of one coupled with the moral boost of handing a titan kill to the enemy will still prevent them from being used casually.

As such, they will still only be used in situation where you can minimize the risk of using them. Like say bringing 2000 angry spastic neckbeards along with you whenever you need to move a titan into a combat situation, so that they may stomp everything in their path that might inconvenience or threaten the titan pilot.

But hey, blueing everything and superblobbing promotes "emergent content", right?
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