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"Shoot ME! Im right HERE and Cant Move!"
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Elvis Preslie
NRDS Securities
#1 - 2014-03-10 14:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Elvis Preslie
The cynosural modules are great. I love them; however, they are not balanced.

The idea of covert ops cyno versus a regular cyno should be that any ship that jumps to a covert ops cyno that is also covert ops, should be able to do so while REMAINING CLOAKED. A jump freighter or a titan should be able to also use covert cynos BUT they should NOT do so cloaked, of course. The other trade off of allowing regular jump drives to use a covert cyno would be that they, the ones with offensive and defensive modules, would appear SYSTEM-WIDE on overview for X seconds.

We could make the CUSTOM NAMES of non covert/blackops ships that jump through a covert cyno show up on overview for x seconds (45 would be ok) BUT NOT SHOWING THE SHIP TYPE. This would be the trade-off of not losing the cyno pilot you used, through allowing the use of the covert cyno; people could use the custom names to cross-reference to ship type on dscan. Of course, as already programmed when using a regular cyno for regular jump driven ships, the regular cyno should show up but the ship names dont.

It could be a toss up as to whether jump freighters would show up using covert cyno or not OR if you just allow jump freighters to use both covert and regular cynos.

I absolutely hate losing the regular cyno pilot 10 minutes after Ive jumped carrier/dread/JF/whatever through because of not being able to move for ten whole minutes, with a beacon over me saying "shoot me! Im right here and cant move!" and the ship I jumped being long gone.

Yes, I am for having regular cynos - a trade off of not doing extra 18 days training (after level 4). However, when you have something immobile for 10 minutes that doesnt have a doomsday device, this is ridiulous!

To sum this all up:

  1. Allow regular jump drive ships, at least jump freighters, ability to use covert cyno but not jump through cloaked. If you allow supers, dreads, titans, carriers, etc, to use it, make the ship NAME, not type or class, appear system-wide on overview for X[/i] seconds (suggested 45). This is so that people have to use dscan and cross-reference the ship name to the type of ship within the limited amount of time they are able to see them on the overview, system-wide. Also, when any ship jumps through titan bridge to covert cyno, make ITS ship name appear on overview system-wide as well, unless its blops or covert. However, dont have blops or coverts land or jump cloaked when using any bridge made by a titan.

  2. When black ops or covert ops ships jump through to a covert cyno, allow the black ops to activate their bridge WHILE CLOAKED and, when true, allow cloaked ships to also jump through AND LAND cloaked[/u]; when you're in the same fleet as the blops doing the bridge, you should be able to see the cloaked blops so that you know how far you are from it (to get in bridge range). Remember that two cloaked ships no longer uncloak each other! The covert ops ships should see the blops when its doing a bridge, when they're around it, and ONLY WHEN IN THE SAME FLEET.[i] This not only allows black ops and covert ops to be truely black ops/covert ops , it opens another door for more potential of spies in the blops fleet Big smile!

    3. When a covert ops or black ops ship jumps through a titan bridge to a covert ops cyno, do NOT allow them to do so cloaked and do NOT land them cloaked, just dont have them show up on overviews of others in system for X amount of seconds.
    This is because the titan, a non blops/covert ship. is originating the cyno or bridge!

  3. You could also make regular jump drives that use covert cyno (for bridge or jump) appear on solar system map for X amount of seconds, as a trade off. This would tell someone where to put probes QUICKLY before they are no longer appearing and possibly (but unknown if) they have warped away from last seen position.

    4. My suggestion is no more than 45 seconds appearing on map and overview, enough for someone to launch probes and home-in on the ships, especially with how fast scanning is now.

  4. If no other changes, at the very least, regular cynos should have SHORTER duration, or the same, as covert ops so they can have some kind of trade off for not being able to move, WHILE appearing system-wide on overview. You could Switch around the cycle timers: make covert ops cynos last 5 - 10 minutes and regular cynos last 1 - 2 minutes.

Psianh Auvyander
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-03-10 15:05:04 UTC
Your opening should focus on a specific topic you're about to prove. You do this, saying cynos aren't balanced.
Elvis Preslie wrote:
The cynosural modules are great. I love them; however, they are not balanced.


Elvis Preslie wrote:
I absolutely hate losing the regular cyno pilot 10 minutes after Ive jumped carrier/dread/JF/whatever through because of not being able to move for ten whole minutes, with a beacon over me saying "shoot me! Im right here and cant move!" and the ship I jumped being long gone.


But here, in this second quote, your only reasoning is that you hate losing a cyno ship. This isn't a very compelling reason to change anything. I won't even go into your proposed changes since no matter what they are, your argument for them doesn't have a leg to stand on if you can't prove that they're necessary.

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@wsethbrown
Elvis Preslie
NRDS Securities
#3 - 2014-03-10 15:07:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Elvis Preslie
Psianh Auvyander wrote:
Your opening should focus on a specific topic you're about to prove. You do this, saying cynos aren't
But here, in this second quote, your only reasoning is that you hate losing a cyno ship. This isn't a very compelling reason to change anything. I won't even go into your proposed changes since no matter what they are, your argument for them doesn't have a leg to stand on if you can't prove that they're necessary.


you didnt read the entire thing; the reasoning is, since we show up on overview, make the duration cycle SHORTER than covert cynos - change around the cycle timers - make covert cynos 5 minutes - 10 minutes and regular cynos 1 - 2 minutes.

a covert cyno AND a black ops ship jumping should be TRUELY black ops - jump cloaked and land cloaked!

they already nerfed the damn things' speed when cloaked; the reason to start that they didnt allow covert ops cloak on black ops is because of their 500% speed when cloaked - now they dont have it BUT they still havent fixed it!!!

If they dont fix black ops speed back OR allow covert ops cloak on them, they need to take away/widen restriction on what ships can use the covert bridge of theirs - like all T2/T3's, not just covert ops.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#4 - 2014-03-10 16:38:06 UTC

If you're covert cynos are dying then light them at a safespot.

1. Jumping any ship to a covert cyno would be pretty damn unnecessary. Sounds like you'd just be able to fit a normal cloak to any capitals and as long as no one already had combat probes out, you could move capitals through any system really easily and safely.

2. These guys are already in local. There's no point to this.

3. Same as above.

4. The tradeoff of a normal cyno is that everyone can jump to it, and you can light it with a week old character in a noobship. Right now covert cynos last 1 minute. Extending this to 5 minutes or 10 minutes would make a lot of blops people very unhappy, which makes me think you don't have much experience with this kind of thing.

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Razor Rocker
Super Mother Fan Club
#5 - 2014-03-10 16:44:20 UTC
You know you can already have a regular cyno ship show up on system wide overview for 10 secs right??

Hit self destruct - wait till 10sec timer - light cyno and blow up

Sure you lose the rookie ship but who cares? Whatever you jumped should be safe. Well unless someone was quick on the draw to warp to your cyno

As for covert ops cynos i wouldnt want to jump cloaked. Makes for more things to do when im trying to get my multi billion isk bs to kill something quickly and get to safety. Its already too safe for jfs to move around. They dont need help with covert cynos or none would ever die. Just my 2 cents.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2014-03-10 17:33:52 UTC

Elvis Preslie wrote:
The cynosural modules are great. I love them; however, they are not balanced.


Bridging is unbalanced, and that might require significant changes to cyno's. But your QQ about cyno's is unfounded!

Elvis Preslie wrote:

The idea of covert ops cyno versus a regular cyno should be that any ship that jumps to a covert ops cyno that is also covert ops, should be able to do so while REMAINING CLOAKED. A jump freighter or a titan should be able to also use covert cynos BUT they should NOT do so cloaked, of course. The other trade off of allowing regular jump drives to use a covert cyno would be that they, the ones with offensive and defensive modules, would appear SYSTEM-WIDE on overview for X seconds.


♦ What the hell are you smoking!!! HELL NO. A covert cyno is very easy to deploy and utilize safely, and I see absolutely no reason to add cloaked jumping to their mantra. That's simply ridiculous.

♦ Jump logistics is instant travel, which is generally BAD for this game, and you just proposed a means to make it completely safe to move a titan or JF. I think. Hell, so what if you know a titan came into system, I'd then have to launch probes, scan him down, warp to him, and hope to catch him before he warped off to safety and cloaked. I think the system warp-to-me beacon is a much better implementation, as it means you need to be careful when cynoing in such ships.

Elvis Preslie wrote:

We could make the CUSTOM NAMES of non covert/blackops ships that jump through a covert cyno show up on overview for x seconds (15 would be ok) BUT NOT SHOWING THE SHIP TYPE. This would be the trade-off of not losing the cyno pilot you used, through allowing the use of the covert cyno; people could use the custom names to cross-reference to ship type on dscan. Of course, as already programmed when using a regular cyno for regular jump driven ships, the regular cyno should show up but the ship names dont.

It could be a toss up as to whether jump freighters would show up using covert cyno or not OR if you just allow jump freighters to use both covert and regular cynos.


Covert cyno's can be utilized to bridge/jump into cynojammed areas. I do not think allowing titans, JF's, or other regular jump ships to utilize them would be good, in any way, for this game.

Elvis Preslie wrote:

I absolutely hate losing the regular cyno pilot 10 minutes after Ive jumped carrier/dread/JF/whatever through because of not being able to move for ten whole minutes, with a beacon over me saying "shoot me! Im right here and cant move!" and the ship I jumped being long gone.


Hey, noob, why don't you protect your cyno. Deploy it next to a POS. Swap to a logistics ship and rep it from any hostiles in the area. Destroy it yourself. Use a noobship so you don't care so much about the loss. QQ, I lost my cyno ship, but was able to instantly travel 15 systems in 10 seconds saving me travel time and travel dangers. Come back to reality, because losing a throwaway cyno ship is a small cost for these near-broken benefits!

Elvis Preslie wrote:

Yes, I am for having regular cynos - a trade off of not doing extra 18 days training (after level 4). However, when you have something immobile for 10 minutes that doesnt have a doomsday device, this is ridiulous!

To sum this all up:

  1. Allow regular jump drive ships, at least jump freighters, ability to use covert cyno but not jump through cloaked. If you allow supers, dreads, titans, carriers, etc, to use it, make the ship NAME, not type or class, appear system-wide on overview for X seconds (suggested 15). The idea is so that people have to use dscan and cross-reference the ship name to the type of ship within the limited amount of time they are able to see them on the overview, system-wide. Also, when any ship jumps through titan bridge to covert cyno, make ITS ship name appear on overview system-wide as well, unless its blops or covert; just dont have blops or covert land or jump cloaked when using any bridge made by a titan.

  2. When black ops or covert ops ships jump through to a covert cyno, allow the black ops to activate their bridge WHILE CLOAKED. When a bridge is active on a blops, allow cloaked ships to jump through AND LAND cloaked; when you're in the same fleet as the blops doing the bridge, you should be able to see the cloaked blops so that you know how far you are from it (to get in bridge range). Remember that two cloaked ships no longer uncloak each other! The covert ops ships should see the blops when its doing a bridge, when they're around it and IN THE SAME FLEET. This allows black ops and covert ops to be truely black ops/covert ops WHILE widening the potential for spies in the blops fleet Big smile!

  3. When a covert ops or black ops ship jumps through a titan bridge to a covert ops cyno, do NOT allow them to do so cloaked and do NOT land them cloaked, just dont have them show up on overviews of others in system for X amount of seconds.

  4. At the very least, regular cynos should have SHORTER duration than covert ops, so they can have some kind of trade off for not being able to move WHILE appearing system-wide on overview, Switch around the cycle timers: make covert ops cynos last 5 - 10 minutes and regular cynos last 1 - 2 minutes.



Jump travel allows you to instantly move your ship from point A to Z. This normally takes a fair amount of time (definitely more than the 10 minutes your cyno lasted). It allows you to bypass the dangers to your jump ship, and transfer those dangers to your cyno ship, which can be protected and/or of little value. There is absolutely no reason to make jump logistics safer, and so I must say no motherucking way to your proposals.
Elvis Preslie
NRDS Securities
#7 - 2014-03-12 03:57:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Elvis Preslie
Razor Rocker wrote:
You know you can already have a regular cyno ship show up on system wide overview for 10 secs right??

Hit self destruct - wait till 10sec timer - light cyno and blow up

Sure you lose the rookie ship but who cares? Whatever you jumped should be safe. Well unless someone was quick on the draw to warp to your cyno

As for covert ops cynos i wouldnt want to jump cloaked. Makes for more things to do when im trying to get my multi billion isk bs to kill something quickly and get to safety. Its already too safe for jfs to move around. They dont need help with covert cynos or none would ever die. Just my 2 cents.



you can also log out the person you cyno'ed

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Jump travel allows you to instantly move your ship from point A to Z. This normally takes a fair amount of time (definitely more than the 10 minutes your cyno lasted). It allows you to bypass the dangers to your jump ship, and transfer those dangers to your cyno ship, which can be protected and/or of little value. There is absolutely no reason to make jump logistics safer, and so I must say no motherucking way to your proposals.


No, jump freighters travel quick. You'd be ready for next cyno before the last cyno finished its cycle.

Im trying to get this changed because we have a beacon for 10 minutes showing where we are; the only difference between covert cyno and regular cyno should be the beacon (and it should be as short of time as the covert cyno)

If jumping a covert ship through a covert bridge to a covert cyno, you should jump cloaked AND LAND cloaked. A black ops jumping to a covert cyno should do same. You should allow regular jump drives to USE covert cyno but, of course, they shouldnt land or jump cloaked. This is what makes, with regular jump drives able to use covert cyno, it balanced and the trade off

Covert cyno takes 18 days PLUS the X days to get to lvl 4....this is the other trade off. You cant just get a new character and have a covert cyno within a couple days.

Batelle wrote:

If you're covert cynos are dying then light them at a safespot.



I didnt say anything about losing covert cynos. I also said SHIPS THAT USE COVERT CYNOS AND ARENT BLACK OPS, make their ship NAMES ( and distance) appear on overview for X amount of time that ccp decides or you guys could suggest. This would make people have to use dscan to cross reference the ship names to the ship type in the very little time they had to see it. If they're smart to screenshot, so be it.
Elvis Preslie
NRDS Securities
#8 - 2014-03-16 07:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Elvis Preslie
Elvis Preslie wrote:


I didnt say anything about losing covert cynos. I also said SHIPS THAT USE COVERT CYNOS AND ARENT BLACK OPS, make their ship NAMES ( and distance) appear on overview for X amount of time that ccp decides or you guys could suggest. This would make people have to use dscan to cross reference the ship names to the ship type in the very little time they had to see it. If they're smart to screenshot, so be it.


You could also make regular jump drives that use covert cyno (for bridge or jump) appear on solar system map for X amount of seconds, as a trade off. This would tell someone where to put probes QUICKLY before they are no longer appearing and possibly (but unknown if) they have warped away from last seen position.

My suggestion is no more than 45 seconds appearing on map and overview, enough for someone to launch probes and home-in on the ships, especially with how fast scanning is now.