Ships & Modules

Again I fail to see why people are comparing and boasting around killing a t1 cruiser with a t2 ship, this one not even being a frig but a t2 dessy. Maybe you are just a better pilot than the counter player, you had a fit designed to take on such a target while he might have not, lots of factors could sway in every way but I would like to ask you to go up against a cerberus and tell us how it goes for you. Not to mention that you took down a ship that is 5x cheaper hull than yours. Not to mention the differences in skill, implants and other factors that also are a huge impact in fights.

Edit

Please go and fight in a t1 frig vs a RLML caracal of apropriate skills and tell us how it goes for you.

This is not at all accurate. You are also taking a system specifically designed against frigates against a long range system. Following that logic the only thing that compares to a RailRax is a HM Caracal, which will do a whooping 10-13 DPS on a TP'd, MWDing Malediction

I've just put this in PYFA.

Let's go a little crazy and assume you have a TP and 3 BCUs
AB -> 190 dps
MWD ->110 dps

Now let's take an Omen (Web and Heat Sinks)
AB/MWD -> up to and over 500 dps (depending on transversal)

A Thorax with Null will do even better.

Let's be more realistic though. No one flies around with precision lights loaded already, people fly around with CN scourge loaded. In your example, I see the Maledication, I swap to precisions (Since with CN Scourge, I do 60 dps) while the Malediction already gets 35 seconds of free shooting time on me. Reload over yay, half my shields are gone. Now I don't know if you've actually looked this up, but at 110dps an entire load of my RLML (18 volleys) cannot kill a 200mm plated Maledication (which is the majority of them). You just don't have enough damage in 1 clip to kill him before having to reload again.

The Malediction gets almost 2 minutes of unload time, which is more than enough to kill a buffer tanked Caracal.

People generally don't swap ammo much, because it of the 35sec reload timer. That's half your shields gone already. You will be using CN Scourge, so realistically you're more looking at 55-60dps on a MWDing, TP'd Maledication. That means depending on skill, he can take a whooping 2 full clips of RLMLs.

At least you're not completely ignorant, and I see you got the 409dps from Scourge Furies (which do 25dps on our Malediction above). So here I am, flying around with my Precision missiles, and I see our Omen from above there. Sweet, I change to Fury missiles ... oh no. I've died before I finished reloading. :(

Let's say I was flying with CN Scourge. I do about 330dps on a cruiser. Not too shabby. Meanwhile, my buddy in the Thorax is cranking out 450-500 and the Omen itself is pushing 480-520. Unfortunately though, after about 30 seconds of shooting, I'm dry. Reload time ... On the Omen it turns out, I did about 30% armor damage. Good stuff. Let's just hope he can't actually repair in that 35 second gap of me not doing damage and let's hope I manage to somehow stay alive in that 35 second gap as wel.

I don't think you realise but in ideal circumstances, you are doing that RLML dps for about 40 seconds. Then you have 35 seconds of reload time. With CN Scourge, the absolute maximum you can get out of that clip of missiles, is 14850 raw damage. Once you deduct target resistances, tranversals, sig radii there isn't really a whole lot left. You talk about Caracal DPS as if it has constant up time. If anything you should divide by 2, since half of the time it's reloading. If you cannot blap something with your initial 3-5K burst, in the first 40 seconds, you are done. And please have a look at the hit points of most frigate and cruiser fits. You'll be surprised.

So yea, you're missing a few things there. Quite a few actually.

You do realise that in 1 clip the Cerb cannot kill a Heretic and if the Heretic has a SAAR, it will never kill it as long as it has paste. I like how you are completely oblivious to the fact there's a 35 second reload time after every RLML clip. The Heretic will however destroy a buffer tanked Cerb, given enough time.

Keeping in mind that the Cerb has a considerably stronger tank than the Caracal, it's completely possible for a Heretic to kill a Caracal. It wouldn't even have to do much to tank 1-2 clips of RLMLs. And that would be more than enough time for the Heretic to kill the Cara.

Light missiles are a long range equivalent of small missile launchers so asking for a comparison with other long range medium weapons is valid.

Concerning the other part of your argument it is all true, the reload times, not having precision fitted and the rest are all valid points. However you are forgetting some other issues that are valid and should be considered, you do not require cap to shoot, traversal and sig doesn't matter at all cause you will be hit for full damage when it comes to cruiser size, ability to chose the right ammo against the ships weakest rez and also the 30km range of your weapons.

While omen and thorax both require cap to shoot, omen does that damage up to 10km and with scorch up to 20km, if omen is active tank fitted then it will burn trough its cap even sooner if it is a buffer tank then you can be kited, your guns are affected by sig and traversal. Same thing goes for thorax but he has that much dps up to 3k km and cant even shoot past 10km and also requires cap for its active tank which will result in faster cap burning and if you are an active tank you can be kited and freely disengaged.

They all have their pro's and con's caracal is good at its own thing and RLML's are also good for their own role and they are not at all underpowered if used properly and with a right tactic.

Please refrain from such comments and personal insults targeted at the person with whom you do not share the same opinion, cause to any cultured and well mannered group you will just look silly and they will ignore you like I plan on doing.

If RLML with light missies can reach to 40km range doesn't that make it a long range weapon or far reaching weapon whatever you like?

You do not have the range on both omen and thorax to reach the caracal in that 24km point range if he kites you correctly, especially thorax.

Yes they can both fit for cap boosters but if they field buffer tank they are slower than the caracal and caracal can always disengage, if they are active tanked and a pilot fits an overdrive injector on a caracal then not even an active tanked omen or thorax can catch you and you can always disengage and keep them in your point range.

I never said that there aren't better options than a caracal for that kind of warfare but it is not at all that underpowered just that if used correctly and with right tactic they are fully capable of being effective.

I suppose in pure range numbers, Heavy Assault launchers have a shorter range, should be around 30km. RLML would be 60ish and Heavy Missile launchers probably around 90km. None of that is really that interesting, since past 24-30km you can't hold points and sniping with missiles just doesn't work. On paper HAMs would probably do even more damage but the damage application of those against frigates is just atrocious.

If you think about it, you would never fit small turrets on a cruiser. They just failed so hard on making missiles work against frigates, they instead designed a launcher that uses frigate sized ammo and fits on cruisers.

At 24-30km, you can't deactivate the MWD meaning the Thorax can decide to disengage and bail. At that point you're far beyond web range as well. It's extremely unlikely you'll hold down the Thorax.

Like I said though, it's just not good enough. Yea it might be possible and I'm sure people pull off kills like that, but who cares when there's a dozen ships that are just better?

No you cannot change damage types, because that gives you a 35 second reload timer. It's extremely hard to recover from starting a fight with 35 seconds of not shooting. Have you actually used these launchers yourself??

Sure you can fit HAMs/HMs. Have you ever tried using them? If all you can do is look at numbers in PYFA or EFT then please, I invite you to go in-game and actually try killing a Taranis with HMs. Let us know how it goes.

And no, all that neuting and tracking immunity and what not the Caracal gets over other cruisers, it's irrelevant if it cannot kill things. Besides, neuting still takes out your hardeners and prob mod, and without prop mod, no kiting. Projectiles don't use cap either, yet they are in a far better place than medium missile systems. You say transversal and this and that, I say sig radius and speed. You make it sound like missiles have no damage modifiers at all. Don't underestimate the effect of speed and sig radius on the damage output of missiles.

I'm sorry man, but you don't really seem to have much of an idea what it's like actually using these ships and launchers. You pull up some chart and numbers you saw in PYFA and come around shouting everything is fine here.

You can change the type of ammo before the fight if you attack something, if you get caught you could change the type of ammo before the reload cycle.

I am well aware of the sig and speed affecting missiles and a kiting HAM caracal is able to do over 200 dps to omen and thorax for example against the weakest rez while being completely safe to disengage when and if they feel like it counting on the fact that they were the ones to open the fight. You wouldn't use HM's cause you can reach well into your point range so HAM's are the only choice besides the RLML.

Tell me how buffer with cap boosters thorax and omen fare versus a double prop taranis will you?

Edit

Just to add that in order to neut out the caracal you need to usualy be at 12km range while caracal is applying dps from 20km range, while both omen and thorax to apply their menacing dps need to be in neuting range. Why are you underestimating tracking disruption when a single tracking disruptor takes thorax matter optimal to 700 and null to 2k so you can be in both scram and web range and not being able to apply any type of dps except drones.

That is the single most dumbest thing I've ever heard. I recommend you learn wtf is going on before posting complete trash. Everyone knows RLML is in a state of garbage and needs to be fixed.

Here's a poll http://poll.pollcode.com/59636175

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1630880 just saw this. Welcome to Eve Forums. These are the guys making changes, these are the who sperge on forums all day, this is all CCP sees. No wonder this game is screwed up.

Right, this isn't just about RLML. It's about the entire group of them. Each got nerfed into the ground one after the other and never got any attention again. Which is why I am worried about the state of RLML, will this too, just like HML and HAM be forgotten?