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Stealth Winmatar Buff
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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#61 - 2011-11-28 19:53:27 UTC
Amarr were buffed back in 2007 and 2008 over the course of 6 months. CCP seems to be following the same line of thought with hybrids. I am currently content to wait to see how the situation develops.

Eve is a Rubik's cube. You can't change one aspect of it without having three of four other results you didn't foresee. If Gallente become once again the undisputed kings of brawling range combat AND have the ability to get into strike range - that can't help but be a nerf to everything else.

As a side not I would love to see Caldari hybrid boats have their fitting grid buffed to the point that they can fit the largest tier rails AND have a tank every bit as fearsome and legendary as the drake. Caldari boats in general are relatively slow, have the largest signature radius, and are missing drone bays. Currently once you fit the rails there is little room to take advantage of the shield resist bonus. They also don't have a direct damage bonus that most other races enjoy. Being able to give pilots a feeling of consistent dread - this mother is going to be tought to kill - would be a very fair tradoff.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#62 - 2011-11-28 19:58:34 UTC
I'm glad to see some sense has returned to the community as a whole. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#63 - 2011-11-28 20:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Krios Ahzek wrote:
I just switched from Amarr to Minmatar and holy turd it's like day and night.

I have the grid to fit a full rack of weapons.
Unlike Amarr, I don't cap out in 1 minute 37 despite having trained cap skills to 4 and 5. I have a hard time finding modules to use my cap with.
I have sick tracking and more DPS.
Okay, so optimal is 1 km instead of 5. Big deal when I move at 700 m/s with my perma-afterburner.
I have a destroyer that's actually good even pre-buff.
I have midslots!
I can outright nuke people with grouped artillery fire.

The only downside is actually requiring ammo, but like all monetary barriers, it's not a real downside if you outperform everything else.

(Amarr are therefore superior at PVE where ammo cost has to be factored in)




Ha ha ha! Welcome brother. Welcome to winning and easy mode. I to saw the light not to long ago. May you out run all your opponents, may your opponents cap hinder their performance, may your mid-slots be numerous and may your auto-cannons strike true... The majority of the time = )

Amen!

-In rust we trust
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2011-11-28 22:42:44 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Yes I am aware of the patch. I am encouraged. (I actually bought fittings for a couple of 200mm Rail Thorax just for kicks - they will create LOL lossmails, but I want to test the tracking of them at disruptor range). I think they should do nothing to any other races until this patch shakes out and we see how it goes. Too many changes at once can hide real issues.

If I said Amarr need general buffing, I didnt mean to. I thought I said they were balanced with Matar. They Amarr (and everyone else) do need some individual ship-rebalances though.

EDIT: And Liang, I agree with you. Baby steps are best.



Until rail tracking comes down into the 425 range they are going to remain useless, simple because pretty much anything sub-BS still going to give you issues with range dictation and rails guns do crap damage in comparison to short range turrets buff or not.

Specially on a Rax fit a tank and an armor cane can keep up with you, don't fit a tank and be three shot take your pick.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2011-11-28 23:27:57 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
I just switched from Amarr to Minmatar and holy turd it's like day and night.

I have the grid to fit a full rack of weapons.
Unlike Amarr, I don't cap out in 1 minute 37 despite having trained cap skills to 4 and 5. I have a hard time finding modules to use my cap with.
I have sick tracking and more DPS.
Okay, so optimal is 1 km instead of 5. Big deal when I move at 700 m/s with my perma-afterburner.
I have a destroyer that's actually good even pre-buff.
I have midslots!
I can outright nuke people with grouped artillery fire.

The only downside is actually requiring ammo, but like all monetary barriers, it's not a real downside if you outperform everything else.

(Amarr are therefore superior at PVE where ammo cost has to be factored in)




Ha ha ha! Welcome brother. Welcome to winning and easy mode. I to saw the light not to long ago. May you out run all your opponents, may your opponents cap hinder their performance, may your mid-slots be numerous and may your auto-cannons strike true... The majority of the time = )

Amen!

-In rust we trust



Might I also add: Buffer tanks that self-repair.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Zeomebuch Nova
Undrinkable Grog Inc.
#66 - 2011-11-29 04:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeomebuch Nova
Cambarus wrote:

The only minmatar ship I can think of better at actually fighting than its amarrian counterpart is the cane.


Rupture
Hurricane
Vagabond
Machariel -->
Dramiel --> Those are worth mentioning and comparing with Nightmare Phantasm Succubus as the concept it basically
Cynabal --> the same as when it comes to minmatar vs amarr ships, just in a glorified form.
Wolf
Rifter
Stabber
Sleipnir
Cyclone
Trasher
Jaguar
sabre
Munnin
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#67 - 2011-11-29 05:41:46 UTC
Zeomebuch Nova wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

The only minmatar ship I can think of better at actually fighting than its amarrian counterpart is the cane.


Rupture ~This one I might actually agree with, but then it's a t1 cruiser, so I CBA to even run the numbers on it.
Vagabond ~Go read my post on page 2. The zealot CREAMS the vaga.
Machariel --> ~Not a valid comparison, and even if it were, the angel ships are better at picking targets, the sansha ones will actually fight better once the battle starts. Working as intended.
Dramiel --> ~Is getting nerfed in the next patch.
Cynabal --> ~Again, look at the zealot.
Wolf ~The retri is a terrible AF, due to its lack of a second midslot. It would still anihilate a wolf in a fight.
Rifter ~Again, in a fight between the 2, the amarrian ship would win every time. Brick tanks and frigates don't go well together in the metagame, which is the only reason you see so many rifters running around.
Stabber ~Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, no.
Sleipnir ~At best iffy, I'd say the abso is better though, because active tanking tends to be a bad idea in pvp and a buffer fit sleip is VASTLY inferior to an abso.
Cyclone ~Is shite, and so is its amarrian counterpart.
Trasher ~Reserving this space for after I've fiddled with the amarr dessy on sisi
Jaguar~ Has 20% less EHP and DPS than the retri.
sabre ~This one maybe. Post some numbers to back it up and you may have an example of an imbalanced ship.
Munnin ~Zealot is better.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#68 - 2011-11-29 06:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Zeomebuch Nova wrote:

Stabber


Really? The stabber? /facepalm

On to a more serious note:
The Hybrid changes stand to change several of these rankings. For example the difference between the Rupture and Vexor/Thorax is actually fairly low and we may actually see them simply reverse positions as they did immediately after the projectile boost. The Thrasher may do the same - there's lots of heavy breathing on vent when people talk about 500 DPS Catalysts.

I think its amusing that you point out the Cyclone because in a lot of ways the Cyclone is already not the best Tier 1 BC. The Ferox is about as good at bait tanking while the Brutix is actually a better damage dealer (and getting better tonight). I won't be really surprised to hear that both of these ships have become much more popular at the given role than the Cyclone.

The Hurricane comparison is just ridiculous because the Harbinger and Drake are both better at straight up brawling. That's not to say that the Hurricane can't run away - because it can - but that doesn't make it better at really fighting. The same kind of thing goes for the Vaga and Muninn vs the Zealot. The Zealot is just better on the whole - as we might expect..

I don't mean to say that there aren't Minnie ships that are hands down the best - for example I would say that the Sleip, Claymore, and Sabre are the best. I'm also convinced that your concerns about the Mach and Cyanabal are somewhat well founded - though I don't personally believe its projectiles that push them over the top.

Anyway - if we see a Minnie/projectile nerf, we see it. I don't really have a horse in the race except requesting that we nerf the appropriate stats for the right reasons. :)

-Liang

Ed: Rereading Cambarus' post makes me realize you were theoretically just comparing Amarr and Minmatar. There are several Amarr ships which are just simply garbage - but none of them are really in positions of concern. For example, the Omen and Retribution are both terrible but it doesn't matter because nobody does anything with those ship classes anyway.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2011-11-29 07:22:40 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Zeomebuch Nova wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

The only minmatar ship I can think of better at actually fighting than its amarrian counterpart is the cane.


Rupture ~This one I might actually agree with, but then it's a t1 cruiser, so I CBA to even run the numbers on it.
Vagabond ~Go read my post on page 2. The zealot CREAMS the vaga.
Machariel --> ~Not a valid comparison, and even if it were, the angel ships are better at picking targets, the sansha ones will actually fight better once the battle starts. Working as intended.
Dramiel --> ~Is getting nerfed in the next patch.
Cynabal --> ~Again, look at the zealot.
Wolf ~The retri is a terrible AF, due to its lack of a second midslot. It would still anihilate a wolf in a fight.
Rifter ~Again, in a fight between the 2, the amarrian ship would win every time. Brick tanks and frigates don't go well together in the metagame, which is the only reason you see so many rifters running around.
Stabber ~Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, no.
Sleipnir ~At best iffy, I'd say the abso is better though, because active tanking tends to be a bad idea in pvp and a buffer fit sleip is VASTLY inferior to an abso.
Cyclone ~Is shite, and so is its amarrian counterpart.
Trasher ~Reserving this space for after I've fiddled with the amarr dessy on sisi
Jaguar~ Has 20% less EHP and DPS than the retri.
sabre ~This one maybe. Post some numbers to back it up and you may have an example of an imbalanced ship.
Munnin ~Zealot is better.



You are suffering the same matar syndrome as many other pilots , that you think 1v1 where nobody wants to warp out or disengage is somehow the basic for balance.

Saying that jaguar/wolf isnt better than the retri ,cause retri has better tank/ehp says all. It cant even tackle them so how could it kill them,other than use your no warp out not disengage balance syndrome?
Competitive pvp is about forcing the enemy to "fight" when you have the upper hand and run when not. And this is what matar does the best by far ,also matar is the best to avoid this.
It doesnt matter if one race is better at "actually fighting"(whatever that means to you) if they cant force the enemy to fight. It would just end in enemy to run away. Picking your fights is part of the actual fight it is its start, you simply cant just negate this.
Btw ,how the hell could you negate the speed /signature advantage in actual fight, that is just silly , as speed is as important as dps or tank.

Matar is op not cause it has the best dps/tank ratio ,but because it is way better at dictating when to fight ,and their dps/tank not only any less than the other race but on par with caldari/gallente or even better , and just slightly less than amarr.

Matar ships eighter have to loose their speed advantage or have real drawbacks in other fields like dps or tank or something ,but currently they dont have any disadvantages at all , pls show me what disadvantages matar has , you wont be able to find any meaningfull I'm sure of it.
+ add that matar has the most advantages too , I dont want to list it as it was done many times.

So pls step out the 1v1 no disengage situation ,which never happens and try to use actual situations.
Like many vs few, where if matar is the many im pretty sure they can win the fight easily , or if they are the few they can just run away. Basically matar wins or it is a draw.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2011-11-29 07:42:52 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

Matar ships eighter have to loose their speed advantage or have real drawbacks in other fields like dps or tank or something ,but currently they dont have any disadvantages at all , pls show me what disadvantages matar has , you wont be able to find any meaningfull I'm sure of it.
+ add that matar has the most advantages too , I dont want to list it as it was done many times.

So pls step out the 1v1 no disengage situation ,which never happens and try to use actual situations.
Like many vs few, where if matar is the many im pretty sure they can win the fight easily , or if they are the few they can just run away. Basically matar wins or it is a draw.



Way to contradict yourself in in four lines or less over hatorade

NOT ONE of the ship you listed is even in the ballpark of winning a nose to nose with it amarrian counterpart (OK Ruture, but who gives a **** its a T1 cruiser and maybe the dictor) without a specific counter fit.

Seriously, show me on the doll where the bad tribesmen touched you.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2011-11-29 07:54:32 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:

Matar ships eighter have to loose their speed advantage or have real drawbacks in other fields like dps or tank or something ,but currently they dont have any disadvantages at all , pls show me what disadvantages matar has , you wont be able to find any meaningfull I'm sure of it.
+ add that matar has the most advantages too , I dont want to list it as it was done many times.

So pls step out the 1v1 no disengage situation ,which never happens and try to use actual situations.
Like many vs few, where if matar is the many im pretty sure they can win the fight easily , or if they are the few they can just run away. Basically matar wins or it is a draw.



Way to contradict yourself in in four lines or less over hatorade

NOT ONE of the ship you listed is even in the ballpark of winning a nose to nose with it amarrian counterpart (OK Ruture, but who gives a **** its a T1 cruiser and maybe the dictor) without a specific counter fit.

Seriously, show me on the doll where the bad tribesmen touched you.

What are u talking about? I havent listed any ships , it was quoted.
btw nice job negating rupture oh it is only a t1 cruiser...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#72 - 2011-11-29 07:56:28 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

...


Would you agree that the Hurricane is the epitome of Minmatar being OP? If not, which ship would you say is - the Vaga maybe? Please don't bring up useless ship classes like AFs, Destroyers, or T1 frigs - being the least sucky ship of all the sucky ships isn't terribly useful.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zeomebuch Nova
Undrinkable Grog Inc.
#73 - 2011-11-29 20:09:34 UTC
Cambarus wrote:


Sleipnir ~At best iffy, I'd say the abso is better though, because active tanking tends to be a bad idea in pvp and a buffer fit sleip is VASTLY inferior to an abso.



ouch, you pretty much messed up.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#74 - 2011-11-29 21:15:57 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:

...


Would you agree that the Hurricane is the epitome of Minmatar being OP? If not, which ship would you say is - the Vaga maybe? Please don't bring up useless ship classes like AFs, Destroyers, or T1 frigs - being the least sucky ship of all the sucky ships isn't terribly useful.

-Liang


I am horribly offended by your characterization of the noble AF and Destroyer class.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2011-11-29 21:36:27 UTC
Catalyst is now a raep-masheen so no need to worry about Minmatar dominating that class either.
Alara IonStorm
#76 - 2011-11-29 21:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Liang Nuren wrote:

Would you agree that the Hurricane is the epitome of Minmatar being OP? If not, which ship would you say is - the Vaga maybe? Please don't bring up useless ship classes like AFs, Destroyers, or T1 frigs - being the least sucky ship of all the sucky ships isn't terribly useful.

-Liang

Hurricane definitely right along side the Drake in PvP terms. There roles are different but they both pretty much obsolete the rest of the Battlecruisers. I think both need a nerf but am against a Drake nerf before Caldari has a real fleet Battleship.

Vega I would say along with the Zealot are right where HAC's should be. Besides the Ishtar/Muniin poking there nose in to say hi I am kinda relevant sometimes, the Eagle, Deimos, Sac and Cerberus haven't got the message. The others lets face it are not where they should be for Heavy Assault Cruisers.

The Cynabal when compared to the other Pirate Cruisers makes them all look bad. Same with the DD and Dramiel. The other Pirate Factions are struggling to break into the middle of the pack below Battleship.

I am happy with the "Destroyer Fix" from a Thrasher pilot prospective but from the other 3 not so much. Caty has no Web with short range Blasters to control range, Cormie has 1 Low making you choose between dmg and tank and the Coercer's one mid makes things difficult. The Thasher however can control range with Dmg, Tank and Tackle hitting the sweet spot. I would have ditched the Rof Debuff as well but I would have dropped 2 Highs and left them all with 6 guns. Then a Mid Slot for the Caty and Coe, Low for the Cormie and Thrasher. But those are just my personal thoughts on Dessies, I am happy with my new Thrasher though.

The Minmatar Battleship Line is excellent the way it is. There Star Player the Maelstrom along with the Abbadon make jokes out of any chance for a Fleet Battleship by Caldari and Gallente. That is more a problem with Caldari and Gallente then Amarr/Minmatar.

Cruiser wise they have the Rupture which is great. The other 3 not so much. Really the whole Cruiser line needs a look at role wise though. Omen's with crap fitting, Mallers with no Dmg, 2 good EWAR Cruiser one of them used as a combat ship, T1 Logi's are completely terrible. All of this overshadowed by the Nano Cane which can run circles around any non Minmatar Cruiser and laughs in the face of Armor Cruisers with more DPS/Tank at similar speed. Really it would be nice if they sorted proper roles for these things and made the ones they set out useful. The Blackbird as a Specialized Cruiser is a good example of this. The Bellicose and Celestis are not.

The T1 Frigate situation is pretty well balanced. The Rifter has the lead but not by much. There are a lot of good T2 and Faction Frigs. No one complains about the Ishkur, Hawk, Rannis, Hookbill and Slicer. Overall some ships could use a little work but everyone has something flyable.

I am not saying Nerf this Race or Nerf that Race but a lot of work needs to be done on Individual Hulls. Cal/Gal Fleet Battleships, Cruisers/Battlecruisers is definitely where they should begin.

CCP Soundwave wrote:
Every time we do a big release, it should contain changes like the ones we’ve just put in. If we do put out a major release without balancing changes, it probably means that CCP Tallest and/or Ytterbium have been eaten by bears. That would be bad, but the reality is that there are very few things you can do to prevent a bear from killing you. According to what I’ve read online, playing dead isn’t necessarily the correct strategy and while there are a lot of great tips, I guess your best odds really comes from not being around bears.

This gives me hope.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#77 - 2011-11-29 22:24:09 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:


You are suffering the same matar syndrome as many other pilots , that you think 1v1 where nobody wants to warp out or disengage is somehow the basic for balance.
Wrong. As numbers on both sides go up, the importance of damage projection and EHP goes up. Amarr are by far the best in larger fleets for that very reason.
Naomi Knight wrote:

Saying that jaguar/wolf isnt better than the retri ,cause retri has better tank/ehp says all. It cant even tackle them so how could it kill them,other than use your no warp out not disengage balance syndrome?
Competitive pvp is about forcing the enemy to "fight" when you have the upper hand and run when not. And this is what matar does the best by far ,also matar is the best to avoid this.
Then in your head minmatar will always be OP, because being fastest = picking your fights. Hell, by your logic no one should fly anything other than a ceptor or force recon, as those are the best ships at target selection.
Naomi Knight wrote:

It doesnt matter if one race is better at "actually fighting"(whatever that means to you) if they cant force the enemy to fight. It would just end in enemy to run away. Picking your fights is part of the actual fight it is its start, you simply cant just negate this.
Btw ,how the hell could you negate the speed /signature advantage in actual fight, that is just silly , as speed is as important as dps or tank.
My zealot vs vaga comparison took tracking into account. If you think that speed will be a deciding factor in the fights, show me a scenario in which your minmatar ship is going to get under the guns of an amarr ship, and beat it, in an actual fight (as in, not just running away)


Naomi Knight wrote:

Matar ships eighter have to loose their speed advantage or have real drawbacks in other fields like dps or tank or something ,but currently they dont have any disadvantages at all , pls show me what disadvantages matar has , you wont be able to find any meaningfull I'm sure of it.
+ add that matar has the most advantages too , I dont want to list it as it was done many times.
Well the vaga has half the ehp of a zealot, and has to fight in falloff, leaving it with notably less DPS as well. Just how bad do you think minmatar ships are supposed to be?

Naomi Knight wrote:

So pls step out the 1v1 no disengage situation ,which never happens and try to use actual situations.
Like many vs few, where if matar is the many im pretty sure they can win the fight easily , or if they are the few they can just run away. Basically matar wins or it is a draw.
Which will always be true of whichever race is the fastest. No amount of balancing is going to change that. So again, by your logic, force recons and ceptors are the only ships worth flying, becuase they're the best at picking their targets.
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#78 - 2011-11-29 22:31:07 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
How to fit a brawling Minmatar ship:
1. Fit largest autocannons
2. If applicable, fit correctly sized neuts
3. Fit oversize/extra plates
4. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:gyrostabs you feel like
5. Fit MWD
6. Fit all those mids with whatever you want. Webs, cap boosters, sebos, anything
You now have absurd dps, speed, tank and utility.
7. Winmatar at all PVP

How to fit armour anything else:
1. Fit largest guns
2. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
3. Realise you can't fit a tank with your guns
4. Move the guns down a size
5. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
6. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:damage mods you feel like
7. Fit MWD
8. Realise that MWD gets you over the powergrid
9. Move a gun down another size or reduce the size of a plate
10. Fit warp disruptor
11. Realise you're over CPU. Make warp disruptor meta
12. Fit cap booster.
13. Realise you're over powergrid. Downsize the cap booster.
14. Realise you were over CPU as well. Make the DCU meta and replace an EANM with adaptive nano plating
You now have an extremely tight fit, with less dps, tank, speed and utility than a Minmatar counterpart
15. Die terribly for not flying Winmatar.


This.

But I like flying Dakes and Canes, so really, I don't care much. lol.

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
Titania Hrothgar
Nemesis Retribution
#79 - 2011-11-29 22:51:20 UTC
I love my rust buckets. :)

Get Webbed - MWD.

Get Scrammed - MWD.

It's great. Rust buckets are notoriously hard to hold for long.

All the world's a stage and all the men and women are the players.
Queue K'Umber
Lucky Golden Emperor's Jade Phoenix Dragon Bistro
#80 - 2011-11-30 00:28:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Winmatar.


This gets really ******* old because its just not true. Minmatar is good in areas, bad in others - its just the way the game is and always will be and always should be. It wouldn't take much of a meta game shift to push Minmatar into total ******* oblivion even without changing any attributes on any ship.

People have correctly pointed out the cluelessness and idiocy of your original post - and many other posts that you've made. Maybe you should start by being a bit more reasonable in your posts rather than demanding "Winmatar" nerfs when they aren't really deserved.

-Liang


Welcome back!