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Triage Carriers are not balanced
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King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#21 - 2011-11-29 01:09:52 UTC
I'm inclined to say that 3 of 4 carriers are pretty well balanced if armor fit. I fly archons, thannies and niddies (only missing chimera). Armor tanked, the archon is 25% tougher than the others, the thanny does 25% more dps (not triage obviously) and the niddy RR's 25% more sustained (burst the archon wins, more PG to fit a 3rd RR). But that's assuming all are armor tanked. The instant we start talking shields it all falls apart.

The problem is basically all the shield mods are extremely heavy on CPU and the CPU's on the three potential shield tanking carriers do not reflect this. On shield fits I've done, I prefer CPR's as cap recharge is the primary concern on a triage carrier. And you can get a fairly decent tank even with the penalties since the penalties are stacking penalized but not the bonuses. The real problem is that after fitting a capital shield booster, a pair of invulns and a pair of remote shield reps, you're already over your CPU on all three carriers. Shield mods simply don't fit on carriers, not even the chimera, and that's all there is to it. It would be like if the archon couldn't fit two reps and two remote reps due to a lack of PG, nevermind anything else.

The realistic solution is a very large buff to CPU for 3 of 4 carriers. You could argue for reducing the CPU required for capital shield mods but the problem isn't just the capital mods, it's that every mod it fits is heavy on CPU and light on PG while if armor fitted, it's a fairly even split between the two.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Space Momma
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2011-11-29 01:53:23 UTC
The only carrier that REALLY needs fixing is the chimera.
it needs at least 10% more CPU so you can even remotely fit it properly.
as it is, it struggles to get 3 capital high slots, let alone 4...
shlakkk
Dark Knowledge.
#23 - 2011-11-29 02:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: shlakkk
after checking the stats again, there is such a clear imbalance between capital shield module fitting requirements and armour ones.

the remote shield transfer uses half as much powergrid as the armour, which is expected, but uses almost five times as much cpu.

this seems strange as the capital shield booster uses only twice as much cpu as the equivalent 2 capital armour repairers

it is clearly the high slot modules, that are causing this problem with fitting.

there are two solutions.

remove a certain amount of cpu requirements from the capital shield mods, ie make it more like 2-3 times the capital remote armour repair value. so 80-120 down from 175.

OR

increase chimera/nidhog cpu by a couple hundred. which is a rubbish fix in my opinion.

but its better than nothing.

whatever is easier ccp
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#24 - 2011-11-29 03:50:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
shlakkk wrote:
here is a thanny being typically crap at triage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20F3n6wHsbA

enjoy


The fit in that video is optimistically something like this (Also, adapted to today's available mods, Strong Exile, and including Legion gang bonuses):

[Thanatos, Clarion Call 1 - Updated]
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Triage Module I
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Imperial Navy Large EMP Smartbomb
Imperial Navy Large EMP Smartbomb

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Vital Stats:
- 961k EHP
- 15861 ( 20526 for ~2:43 ) local tank
- 15 minutes of capacitor
- 3673 HP/sec RR output

Moving that fit onto a Nidhoggur trades cap time for burst repping (10k less capacitor, same recharge rate):
- 879K EHP
- 15861 ( 20526 for ~2:43 ) local tank
- 12 minutes of capacitor
- 4591 HP/sec RR output

Moving a similar fit onto an Archon (-1 cap recharger, +1 cap power relay):
- 1194k EHP
- 21148 ( 27368 for ~2:43) local tank
- Cap stable
- 3673 HP/sec RR output

And that's nothing next to what you can actually squeeze out of an Archon (4 RR setup):
- 1194k EHP
- 21148 ( 27368 for 2:43 ) local tank (You can go much higher than this if tank is your goal)
- Cap stable with 2 RRs, pulsing 3rd.
- 4591 HP/sec RR output (Pulse 3rd RR 50% of the time)
- 7346 (8642 overheated) burst HP/sec RR output

It seems that the Archons in Clarion Call 3 are fit with an energy transfer in place of the last RR, and this is almost certainly a good choice when you're trying to fuel a Bhaalgorn's capacitor. Ultimately: Yes, the Thanny is crap at triage and there's a reason that all current videos from R&K feature ARCHONS.

-Liang

Ed: Also, I should point out that perhaps you are the one looking at shield carriers wrong. I mean hell - if we want to go down that street we can always say the Chimera is a fleet carrier and shouldn't be fit with a local rep. This largely fixes the CPU issues with 3 RRs, ET, SB in the highs.

I don't encourage going down this path, FWIW. When attempting to shield work, all carriers are a bit broken. As you say, capital shield mods are extremely difficult to fit.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-11-29 04:43:21 UTC
Agreed ... every ship of each class should have atleast the basic capabilities expected out of that class. On top of that you add the flavour that gives the ships something unique other then looks.

When you have the "Way better then others" options in a competitive game like this it means everyone will flock to it making the game rather dull in terms of ship usage.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#26 - 2011-11-29 04:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
R&K are like supermen when it comes to triage as well as standard logistics. They've been doing it for a long time and are good at it. It doesn't mean somebody else could just hop into a triage and perform just as well. ;)

One of their more impressive fights happened not all that long ago, where their two triage carriers with sub cap support routed and/or destroyed a fleet much larger.

It wasn't so much that the fleet was much larger though that made it impressive. The impressive part was that the enemy fleet had the support of 4 super carrier, 2 dreads, 2 regular carriers and too many sub cabs to count.

But outnumbered, and with only 2 triage carriers, R&K took the field. ;) Goes to show how potent triage carriers can be in the right hands.

Detailed battle report below.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1544419-0/page/all
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#27 - 2011-11-29 06:18:53 UTC
JC Anderson wrote:
R&K are like supermen when it comes to triage as well as standard logistics. They've been doing it for a long time and are good at it. It doesn't mean somebody else could just hop into a triage and perform just as well. ;)

One of their more impressive fights happened not all that long ago, where their two triage carriers with sub cap support routed and/or destroyed a fleet much larger.

It wasn't so much that the fleet was much larger though that made it impressive. The impressive part was that the enemy fleet had the support of 4 super carrier, 2 dreads, 2 regular carriers and too many sub cabs to count.

But outnumbered, and with only 2 triage carriers, R&K took the field. ;) Goes to show how potent triage carriers can be in the right hands.

Detailed battle report below.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1544419-0/page/all


Yeah man - I'm not at all trying to knock R&K. I've been following their battle reports for a long time and really enjoy them. I'm even something of a fanboy - I'd try to join them but I can't decide if I'm ok with that size of gangs or if I should try to work something out with Heretics (because it worked out so well last night). Either way my triage carrier skills aren't up to par if for no other reason than the fact I fly a Niddy - and that's a little sad to me.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
shlakkk
Dark Knowledge.
#28 - 2011-11-29 20:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: shlakkk
niddy got a powergrid buff with crucible. and more cap. and rr bonus from 5% to 7.5% why no love for chimera when niddy was probably the strongest triage carrier after the archon.

i dont want to push for an archon nerf, its just when people (like me and liang) who can already fly one races class of carrier. are forced to train for another because it is just so much better.

I would much rather the other carriers get brought into line. to add flavour, and to make sure people like us dont have to train another 4 months for the same class of ship.
Limvala Adur
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-11-29 21:18:24 UTC
Nid good for anything after the "buff" ?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#30 - 2011-11-29 21:51:59 UTC
shlakkk wrote:
niddy got a powergrid buff with crucible. and more cap. why no love for chimera when niddy was probably the strongest triage carrier after the archon.


The fitting bonus is pretty small and playing with it last night didn't seem to open up any new realistic fittings. The cap bonus is probably the most interesting boost - it should give it less overall cap but a better recharge rate than the Thanny (for example). I'll have to play with it more to be sure.

Quote:

i dont want to push for an archon nerf, its just when people (like me and liang) who can already fly one races class of carrier. are forced to train for another because it is just so much better.

I would much rather the other carriers get brought into line. to add flavour, and to make sure people like us dont have to train another 4 months for the same class of ship.


Its true - I already hit up Minnie Carrier 5. I'll end up training Liang for the Archon eventually anyway though - so I'm not terribly worried about this. :P

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#31 - 2011-11-29 22:38:28 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
shlakkk wrote:
niddy got a powergrid buff with crucible. and more cap. why no love for chimera when niddy was probably the strongest triage carrier after the archon.


The fitting bonus is pretty small and playing with it last night didn't seem to open up any new realistic fittings. The cap bonus is probably the most interesting boost - it should give it less overall cap but a better recharge rate than the Thanny (for example). I'll have to play with it more to be sure.

Quote:

i dont want to push for an archon nerf, its just when people (like me and liang) who can already fly one races class of carrier. are forced to train for another because it is just so much better.

I would much rather the other carriers get brought into line. to add flavour, and to make sure people like us dont have to train another 4 months for the same class of ship.


Its true - I already hit up Minnie Carrier 5. I'll end up training Liang for the Archon eventually anyway though - so I'm not terribly worried about this. :P

-Liang


I can only fly the Archon and the Chimera, but I really love the look of the Nid and wish they would do a little more for it to make it perform as well as it looked. ;)
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#32 - 2011-11-29 22:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
Double post
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#33 - 2011-11-29 23:01:10 UTC
JC Anderson wrote:

I can only fly the Archon and the Chimera, but I really love the look of the Nid and wish they would do a little more for it to make it perform as well as it looked. ;)


Its true - the Nidhoggur is definitely the best looking carrier - and the Hel is the best looking SC. If Supers weren't such a PITA I'd totally fly a Hel just because of how Damn Sexy it is.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mysteriax
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2011-11-29 23:08:02 UTC
Nidhoggur might not be the best fleet ship but it is by far the best posrepper, which is also an important role of a carrier.
Suicide Triage fit is cap stable and with 5 of em you can 1 cycle a large pos after the boost i believe.

Since shield fleets are usually fast, a carrier in a shield gang doesnt make much sense since if you slug it out you use Armor ships.

So Chim might need an overhaul
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