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New dev blog: Starbase tweaks: an update

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ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2011-11-26 22:00:53 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
ZaBob wrote:
Um, I agree that people are underestimating the difficulty and complexity, but you seriously understate the value and power of virtualization technology for testing.

Once you test the script to alter the fuels, you *discard* the changes, and return to your snapshot.

And a snapshot of a 100GB database does *not* take 100GB, if it was based on another base snapshot. If you make 1GB of changes to a 100GB database, and snapshot, it takes around 1GB of storage.

With virtualized storage and things like ZFS, yes. But CCP is a Microsoft drone, so there's no such thing... well, Hyper-V lol


No, with things like VMWare, or VirtualBox, or even Microsoft's own Virtual PC -- all if which run under Windows just fine, no Hyper-V needed. On my own systems, I use VMWare Workstation; at work, I use VirtualBox because it's free. i like VMWare a bit better, but VirtualBox is good enough and I don't have to deal with getting purchasing approval.

I do this all the time, sometimes over and over again in the same day. I've done this for many years. My knowledge of this is not merely theoretical.

It also works fine with Amazon EC2, and that works fine with Windows (although it's more expensive to use Windows there, due to licensing). EC2's EBS snapshots require a bit more juggling and tracking to use this way, but it can be done.

ZFS has nothing whatsoever to do with this; it works with any filesystem, because it works at the level of virtualized storage. Only the modified pages become part of the snapshot. (I think the VMs may have some filesystem-specific optimizations, but that's not essential). It works fine with NTFS, FAT16, FAT32, efs2, efs3, swap, or random data you dump in using dd using Linux.

Watch out for becoming an OS bigot. It makes you myopic.

Seriously, if you're developing or testing anything with big datasets, or complex setup, or involving installation, you should be using virtual machines. You can host them on any platform you find convenient -- PC, Mac, Linux, the cloud, or a bare-metal hypervisor. The time and cost savings are enormous, and the ability to construct repeatable test environments is irreplacible

If you're running Windows VMs, you'll want an MSDN subscription to give you licenses for the various Windows versions (for several virtual machines).
Cynosurza
State War Academy
Caldari State
#202 - 2011-11-28 17:53:54 UTC
So, I just want to confirm. The 10x increase in fuel usage in the tower, does not mean a 10x increase in regular POS fuel needed to make the block, because the requirements for making 1 run of 40 is the same as it was for making 1 run of 4, correct?
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#203 - 2011-11-28 18:39:10 UTC
Cynosurza wrote:
So, I just want to confirm. The 10x increase in fuel usage in the tower, does not mean a 10x increase in regular POS fuel needed to make the block, because the requirements for making 1 run of 40 is the same as it was for making 1 run of 4, correct?


The materials for each batch are as originally listed - but the batch now makes 40 blocks instead of 4, and the standard towers consume 10/20/40 blocks per hour (instead of 1/2/4 per hour).
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2011-11-28 20:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagdul
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hiram Alexander wrote:
When will the bpo's go up for sale, so that we can start getting ready...?


On Crucible launch day, ie, around two weeks before the switchover

Chigger Troutslayer wrote:
Faction tower fuel savings was addressed. Does this mean we will also get a fuel use bonus for Sov?


Yes.


http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sovereignty_guide
Quote:
25% less fuel is consumed by Starbases anchored in the system by corporations belonging to the sovereignty holding alliance.



Has this been nerfed to 10%?

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#205 - 2011-11-28 23:35:30 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hiram Alexander wrote:
When will the bpo's go up for sale, so that we can start getting ready...?


On Crucible launch day, ie, around two weeks before the switchover

Chigger Troutslayer wrote:
Faction tower fuel savings was addressed. Does this mean we will also get a fuel use bonus for Sov?


Yes.


http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sovereignty_guide
Quote:
25% less fuel is consumed by Starbases anchored in the system by corporations belonging to the sovereignty holding alliance.



Has this been nerfed to 10%?


Nope. Code's not been touched at all, it should be the same bonus as previously.
Icarus Helia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#206 - 2011-11-29 04:28:27 UTC
what will the npc price on these fuel bpo's be?

Why you no care?
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#207 - 2011-11-29 05:41:27 UTC
I'm looking forward to all the offline POSes that will be scattered around as a result of folks not reading the forums and thus not putting fuel pellets in the fuel bay.

/me stares hungrily at the unpiloted niddy, Orca, and Tempest through his bomber's display interface.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Icarus Helia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#208 - 2011-11-29 06:56:54 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
I'm looking forward to all the offline POSes that will be scattered around as a result of folks not reading the forums and thus not putting fuel pellets in the fuel bay.

/me stares hungrily at the unpiloted niddy, Orca, and Tempest through his bomber's display interface.


FREE CAPITALS BEST CAPITALS!

Why you no care?
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2011-11-30 06:43:52 UTC
Icarus Helia wrote:
what will the npc price on these fuel bpo's be?


And why do we need to ask the question? After the release, no less.
half san
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#210 - 2011-11-30 11:40:05 UTC  |  Edited by: half san
40 fuel bloks for 1 cycle on large POS, so for one day you need 960 fuel block, on today prices of materials neded for production, of one fuel block, will lead as to 40 times more expensive maintenance of Large POS.

My mistake, wrong calculation.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#211 - 2011-11-30 14:42:37 UTC
Old vs new Consumption (assuming a ME40 BPO of the fuel blocks and Production Efficiency V skill):

Coolant - 2/4/8 to 2/4/8
Enriched Uranium - 1/2/4 to 1/2/4
Mech Parts - 2/3/5 to 1/2/4
Oxygen - 7/13/25 to 5/10/20
Robotics - 1/1/1 to 0.25/0.50/1.00
Heavy Water - 38/75/150 to 38/75/150
Isotopes - 113/225/450 to 100/200/400
Liquid Ozone - 38/75/150 to 38/75/150

So Mech Parts consumption went down. Oxygen went down. Robotics was even or down. Isotopes went down.

HW/LOz went up either a little or a lot, depending on how much CPU/PG you were using before (but HW/LOz are not that expensive in the big picture when compared to the PI-sourced fuels and the isotopes).

Research time on the new BPOs is 3d3h if you have Metallurgy V trained, otherwise 4d4h in a POS lab without any skill in Metallurgy. Perfect ME for the fuel BPOs is ME40.
Lucius Arcturus
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#212 - 2011-11-30 20:41:15 UTC
Looks like the block manufacturing process is fine, but blocks can't yet be dropped into starbase fuel bays.

CAPLF WH Sales

Capitalization in EVE Online
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#213 - 2011-11-30 22:59:22 UTC
Lucius Arcturus wrote:
Looks like the block manufacturing process is fine, but blocks can't yet be dropped into starbase fuel bays.


Yup, known issue, will be fixed shortly!
Otin Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
#214 - 2011-12-02 15:30:21 UTC
I am a HiSec dweller running a small corp with our own POS for R&D and manufacture. Just a small time operation for a group of us who's RL only allows us a few hours a day/week to play. We mine, run missions, explore as the mood strikes us as we all love the variety of things we can do in Eve withour limited play time.

A couple of related things here give me pause as we seem to be on the verge of loosing a couple of activities:

1. New PI Taxes. Up to now, we have been able to have 3 toons running 14 PI and 1 Manufacture planet on 24-48 hour cycles to keep up with fueling our POS (large faction). After going thru my own spreadsheets on PI production, factor in the new costs for export/import ... well, without getting into great detail, huge ISK drain for a small group. It just may not be economically viable for us to continue running a HiSec POS for the casual corp.

2. Fuel Blocks & Faction Towers. I read and understand where faction towers have received an increase to their fuel bays to compensate for loosing their decreased fuel requirements. This was done to try compensating for not being able to divide 1 fuel block. Well, after paying a premium price for the faction tower, a larger fuel bay is NOT adiquate compensation but, I can not think of anything better to do so, just had to vent.

TLDR :: Small time HiSec casual players will be hurt the most by these changes possibily pushing us toward extinction.
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
#215 - 2011-12-02 15:50:57 UTC
Otin Bison wrote:
I am a HiSec dweller running a small corp with our own POS for R&D and manufacture. Just a small time operation for a group of us who's RL only allows us a few hours a day/week to play. We mine, run missions, explore as the mood strikes us as we all love the variety of things we can do in Eve withour limited play time.

A couple of related things here give me pause as we seem to be on the verge of loosing a couple of activities:

1. New PI Taxes. Up to now, we have been able to have 3 toons running 14 PI and 1 Manufacture planet on 24-48 hour cycles to keep up with fueling our POS (large faction). After going thru my own spreadsheets on PI production, factor in the new costs for export/import ... well, without getting into great detail, huge ISK drain for a small group. It just may not be economically viable for us to continue running a HiSec POS for the casual corp.

2. Fuel Blocks & Faction Towers. I read and understand where faction towers have received an increase to their fuel bays to compensate for loosing their decreased fuel requirements. This was done to try compensating for not being able to divide 1 fuel block. Well, after paying a premium price for the faction tower, a larger fuel bay is NOT adiquate compensation but, I can not think of anything better to do so, just had to vent.

TLDR :: Small time HiSec casual players will be hurt the most by these changes possibily pushing us toward extinction.


Not going to get into the PI taxes argument.

Faction towers do get a boost to fuel consumption. Originally they didn't, but apparently TLDR has applied to dev posts as well.

Normal tower uses 10/20/40, tier 1 faction is 9/18/36, tier 2 faction is 8/16/32 blocks per hour.

And the casual high sec players will adapt, just as all others have when their environment changes.
TorTorden
Tors shibari party
#216 - 2011-12-02 17:06:42 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
D'Kelle wrote:
"
starbase tweaks: an update
reported by CCP Greyscale | 2011.11.23 13:14:14 | NEW | Comments
You may remember from the earlier blog (hint: read that blog if you haven't already) that we're making some adjustments to starbases in Crucible. Based on discussion in the feedback thread, we have made some changes to our plan, which will be detailed here.


We recommend ensuring that you keep enough old-style fuel in your tower to last three days past the scheduled switchover patch - so that, in the unlikely event that the patch runs into a technical glitch that prevents deployment, your towers won't go offline - and fill the rest up with fuel blocks. This should ensure a smooth switch-over. "

Is it just me, but that word should makes me nervous.


CCP having bugs in their code that ensures all POS towers in EVE turn off simultaneously, offlining everything? As if that could ever happen.. pffft...

You worry too much!

I'm sure CCP is competent and has carefully tested their code and...

..

...

What? STOP LAUGHING! It might all work out just fine!


All I know is on switch over day I'm logging off in an orca with blocks in it :P
aetherguy881
Grouchy Rediculous Ugly Man Pigs
#217 - 2011-12-02 17:23:53 UTC
Is there an ETA yet?
Flamehaired Death
Doomheim
#218 - 2011-12-02 19:51:47 UTC
If you could please schedule change over closer to the biggest family holiday of the season...

well it would be like Xmas day for some players -- tons of POS with no shields to shoot !!!!


On the other hand many players would prefer you schedule this swtich for some time in the second week of January - when RL family and holiday issues aren't overriding their ability to focus on serious EVE issues. Heck I bet CCP staff would prefer that later time especially in the case where things don't go 100% smooth.

Just a thought along those "make the customers happier" line. Not like the 30 days costs you anything.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#219 - 2011-12-02 22:00:21 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Lucius Arcturus wrote:
Looks like the block manufacturing process is fine, but blocks can't yet be dropped into starbase fuel bays.


Yup, known issue, will be fixed shortly!


Between this and the BPO-seeding delay, now you know why we pushed for an automated hand-over after the holidays...

At this rate you'll either patch it next Mon/Tue and give us a week to fuel all towers, or postpone it anyway.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#220 - 2011-12-02 22:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Scrapyard Bob
Agreed, pushing this off until the first or second week of January for the actually swap of fuel types would be a big benefit.

As for the small time operators - even with the current prices, they're not going to be much worse then what you were paying back when Isotopes were 600 ISK/u. Here's what you'll be paying per 30 days of POS fuel once we switch over to pellets:

Assumptions:

Coolant = 12500
Enr Uranium = 13500
Mech Parts = 12000
Oxygen = 500
Robotics = 90000
HW = 200
Isotopes = 500
Liq Oz = 420

Price per 30 days:

Small - 109M
Medium - 216M
Large - 430M

And that could go up/down by about 30M ISK (probably down, because I expect P2 to settle in around 11-12k ISK/u). At 430M, that would be a pellet price of around 14.9k/u. Pellet prices are currently much higher then that due to limited supply, speculation and profit-taking. Not many people are producing for the market yet (most of us are still doing ME/PE research).