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What are some actual numbers on current income in nullsec?
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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#61 - 2014-03-04 22:59:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
all I know is that Highsec has been over nerfed income wise for years which is why in recent years there have been buffs to high sec such as the Noctis and now the MTU deployable both of which allow mission runners to make money faster when deployed in highsec.

Meanwhile Null gets the 5% nerf and the ESS (both of which I do not approve of).

Indeed a CCP dev said in the ESS F&I thread that money was being created like crazy in null and that this was of concern as they were worried about inflation, hence the ESS module was developed to counter this.

Now CCP are in the position of having access to all of the numbers plus they have economists on their staff so we've got to take it on face value that they know what they are doing with regards to the economy.

Just adapt and roll with the changes, you have no other choice.


Said CCP dev then backtracked on the ESS comment because their own Economist stated that there was no issue with too much isk being injected into the economy. The ESS nerf was put in to encorage people to use the ESS.

We have also shown that activities such as running anoms is worse at earning isk than running missions. We have also shown that industry in null is never going to happen because it is cheaper to build in empire and just ship it out to null.

High sec has also not seen very many nerfs at all when compared to null income nerfs over the years.


I didn't know that, can you provide the link to the economist's comments please, many thanks.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#62 - 2014-03-04 23:02:06 UTC
Qalix wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We have also shown that activities such as running anoms is worse at earning isk than running missions.

I'd love to read the article and/or thread. Link?



The problem with the notion of anoms versus missions, and why it's so widely disputed, is due to the spectrum of requirements for each that leave a lot of open to debate.

To run anoms there is a narrow range of firepower needed to do them successfully and at a rate that does not nuke your margins.

The same can be said for missions, but we have a host of various mission types that far exceed the types of anoms.


Some players can do a level 4 mission in 20 minutes and some might take twice that. So person A says "you can make this much ISK per hour doing XYZ" and Player B says "Bull! You lie! Trolly trolly trolly" and things degenerate from there.


Some players are also fully skilled to do certain things (Min/Max 'ed) and how many who are in a certain profile don't know it? I learned of such differences doing nullsec exploration back when Radar sites were also combat sites. In a Serpentis site I could kite them with a poorly equipped Cyclone sporting 3 missile launchers and 5 drones (all that other exploration gear takes up a lot of space, plus the cloak, drone mod, etc). But if I hit a Guristas site I was in big trouble.

Anecdotal? Yes. All around. And that's the problem with these threads. It's all about one person having it one way in their experience and then claiming that it's that way for everybody. Or someone tries it "their way" and then comes back saying it's BS "it didn't work for me". I hear great things about the Myrmidon but I never could make one work.


There's also the element of Forum Poker whereby going into a forum and making outrageous claims seems to satisfy the inner child in a lot of people (the one that didn't get spanked and left to scream out it's stupidity from the basement).


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#63 - 2014-03-05 00:12:12 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I lived in nullsec a few years ago, so I have some idea on what there is to be done out there, but it never seemed to me to be a huge golden cash-cow. Since I'm not about to abandon my current activities to go check it out myself, I would like to ask you, GD, to give me some figures.

Note: I don't care how much money an alliance or coalition makes from renting, moon mining, or other such activities. This is a question about personal income of average nullsec residents at varying skill levels.

Some examples:


  • Independent mining with a new character, or "ninja-mining" in hostile space
  • Mining with a fully-skilled character and support fleet (boosts etc)
  • Belt ratting with a meta BC setup; belt ratting with a maxed out BS setup
  • Anomalies (different incomes from different anomalies); are sanctums still everyone's favorite?
  • Data/Relic site exploration?
  • Combat site exploration? How common are escalations and finding extremely valuable loot?
  • Industry? Shipping in stuff vs. local manufacturing?


There are probably some things I've missed. I think there's a lot of misinformation (disinformation?) around what those evil mean nullseccers get by puppeteering CCP, so let's set it straight.


I lose a probe or two a month and a bit of relic and data sites just make up for the excitement. But I am promised our nwe HERO coalition is going to burn balls and I will be there!
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-03-05 01:08:59 UTC
Qalix wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We have also shown that activities such as running anoms is worse at earning isk than running missions.

I'd love to read the article and/or thread. Link?


It got locked, had spread sheets and all of that crap.


Either way, if mission running wasn't at least close we would all have empire alts to make iskies.

Because the hell if I'm putting a billion in ship on the line and having to keep an eye on intel/local/allaince just keep up with what a make with a cyno alt running ****** level 4s.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2014-03-05 01:22:40 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
all I know is that Highsec has been over nerfed income wise for years which is why in recent years there have been buffs to high sec such as the Noctis and now the MTU deployable both of which allow mission runners to make money faster when deployed in highsec.

Meanwhile Null gets the 5% nerf and the ESS (both of which I do not approve of).

Indeed a CCP dev said in the ESS F&I thread that money was being created like crazy in null and that this was of concern as they were worried about inflation, hence the ESS module was developed to counter this.

Now CCP are in the position of having access to all of the numbers plus they have economists on their staff so we've got to take it on face value that they know what they are doing with regards to the economy.

Just adapt and roll with the changes, you have no other choice.


Said CCP dev then backtracked on the ESS comment because their own Economist stated that there was no issue with too much isk being injected into the economy. The ESS nerf was put in to encorage people to use the ESS.

We have also shown that activities such as running anoms is worse at earning isk than running missions. We have also shown that industry in null is never going to happen because it is cheaper to build in empire and just ship it out to null.

High sec has also not seen very many nerfs at all when compared to null income nerfs over the years.


I didn't know that, can you provide the link to the economist's comments please, many thanks.


Its burried in the dev blogs somewhere about six months after they nerfed incursion income. Tippia might have a link.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#66 - 2014-03-05 01:25:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
The latest statement was from the last set of CSM minutes, but it's been the same for close to two years now — just check the fanfest economy presentations. Oh, and the only highsec income nerf in recent years was the incursion adjustment… which they then reversed.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2014-03-05 01:26:24 UTC
Qalix wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We have also shown that activities such as running anoms is worse at earning isk than running missions.

I'd love to read the article and/or thread. Link?


It got locked last week due to heavy trolling. Should be somewhere around page 4 of GD. There is a lot of dross but at around page 90 we got details of level 3 and 4 missions and anom income.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#68 - 2014-03-05 01:43:50 UTC
Em arr Roids wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
in the last thread, a guy did anoms in an ishtar (sposed to be the most practical ship for hubs) and put the numbers into a spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqC-BTui2uSGdDlxa2dWOG5ieHB0QXBVWW82bGN5TFE&usp=sharing#gid=0


Nice job to the guy who did the spread sheet. Now we just need someone to spend 24 hours in total running nullsec plexes, data and relic sites and see how that actually compares.


We don't.

I am standing still, I get about 10 plexes a month in 1 system even with arrays running. There are a couple taken from my system per month by others (I can see it occur on dotlan since I'm the only ratter).

The usual mix I'd expect for a month would be 4 piths (220m per run av), 3 military operations complexes(213 per run av), 2 reinvigorations (600m per run ave) and 1 maze (400m per run ave).

I could personally complete every combat plex that currently spawns in a constellation if I hadn't agreed to not do that, so my plex income is only going to scale to ~3000 over the entirety of nullsec, and someone purely roaming, is going to be even less scalable.

There are 37,000 characters in the CFC, they literally can't all log on and do miniprofs and deds, as that would both crash prices (through increased rotation of the sigs). and reduce per person signatures found, because increasingly their search paths would overlap before a sig respawned in front of them. Note the maximum distance I've travelled hunting a ded is 110 jumps (with some reversals), in highsec, which is what happens when there are many people with overlapping search paths.

ie what you want to do is notionally equivalent to comparing highsec traders to highsec mission runners, some few people will make a fortune, but its not possible for everyone to do that as if everyone was a trader, every single margin would pinch to nothing.
stoicfaux
#69 - 2014-03-05 03:09:09 UTC
[Rubicon 1.1.] Level 3 Blitzing: 50M+ isk in assets per hour

Vargur Income running Level 4s without blitzing (Rubicon 1.1)

YMMV.

Basically, the anoms versus high-sec missions discussion seemed to boil down to:
a) you can make a good bit of liquid isk (as opposed to dealing with LP, loot, salvage) in a "cheap", "low skill" Ishtar, but with limited scalability, interruptions in the form of hot drops and cloakers, competition from other anom runners, etc.,
or
b) you could make "lots" of non-liquid isk (i.e. LP, loot, salvage), in an expensive, high-skill requirement marauder in high sec running level 4s with the ability to decline multiple missions per four hour block. Level 4s are an "infinite" resource that can be done in the "safety" of high-sec. The LP stores are a good bit more scalable than anoms, but they still require time, research, and market patience if you want to make the "big bucks."

/shrug

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2014-03-05 03:35:50 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
[Rubicon 1.1.] Level 3 Blitzing: 50M+ isk in assets per hour

Vargur Income running Level 4s without blitzing (Rubicon 1.1)

YMMV.

Basically, the anoms versus high-sec missions discussion seemed to boil down to:
a) you can make a good bit of liquid isk (as opposed to dealing with LP, loot, salvage) in a "cheap", "low skill" Ishtar, but with limited scalability, interruptions in the form of hot drops and cloakers, competition from other anom runners, etc.,
or
b) you could make "lots" of non-liquid isk (i.e. LP, loot, salvage), in an expensive, high-skill requirement marauder in high sec running level 4s with the ability to decline multiple missions per four hour block. Level 4s are an "infinite" resource that can be done in the "safety" of high-sec. The LP stores are a good bit more scalable than anoms, but they still require time, research, and market patience if you want to make the "big bucks."

/shrug


Scalability is kind of a big deal when you have thousands of accounts that need ships.

Like I said, if null rewards were such faucets we wouldn't all have alts in high sec.
ashley Eoner
#71 - 2014-03-05 15:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Tippia wrote:
The latest statement was from the last set of CSM minutes, but it's been the same for close to two years now — just check the fanfest economy presentations. Oh, and the only highsec income nerf in recent years was the incursion adjustment… which they then reversed.

Only partially reversed. Overall income is still nerfed especially when looking at VG/AS.




Onictus wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
[Rubicon 1.1.] Level 3 Blitzing: 50M+ isk in assets per hour

Vargur Income running Level 4s without blitzing (Rubicon 1.1)

YMMV.

Basically, the anoms versus high-sec missions discussion seemed to boil down to:
a) you can make a good bit of liquid isk (as opposed to dealing with LP, loot, salvage) in a "cheap", "low skill" Ishtar, but with limited scalability, interruptions in the form of hot drops and cloakers, competition from other anom runners, etc.,
or
b) you could make "lots" of non-liquid isk (i.e. LP, loot, salvage), in an expensive, high-skill requirement marauder in high sec running level 4s with the ability to decline multiple missions per four hour block. Level 4s are an "infinite" resource that can be done in the "safety" of high-sec. The LP stores are a good bit more scalable than anoms, but they still require time, research, and market patience if you want to make the "big bucks."

/shrug


Scalability is kind of a big deal when you have thousands of accounts that need ships.

Like I said, if null rewards were such faucets we wouldn't all have alts in high sec.

Null is a huge faucet because nullbears refuse to use all the tools available. Don't get me wrong I don't blame them for hating on the ESS. CCP certainly should look at moving to a more useful LP based payment system. Null income would be better for those individuals if they weren't in an alliance/corp that rented out large sections of their space. Those corporations/alliances have decided that the needs of the individuals pale in comparison to the needs of the corporation/alliance. I have no real sympathy for those individuals who choose to stay in those corporations/alliances.

Blitzers running lvl 4 missions on the other hand are a massive sink since the real income is from LP which directly removes isk from circulation.
Vyl Vit
#72 - 2014-03-05 17:01:09 UTC
Every time I go into null sec, I get a ship blown up. I'm out there looking for friends, and playmates. So, I say in local, "Hey everybody! Will you be my friends?" Invariably the reply is, "Yeah! We'll be your friends! Just come to such-and-such station so we can meet!" I get there and BOOM!

So, I'd have to say, my null sec experiences have cost me waaaay more ISK than I've ever made out there. Go figure.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Salvos Rhoska
#73 - 2014-03-05 17:03:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Vyl Vit wrote:
Every time I go into null sec, I get a ship blown up. I'm out there looking for friends, and playmates. So, I say in local, "Hey everybody! Will you be my friends?" Invariably the reply is, "Yeah! We'll be your friends! Just come to such-and-such station so we can meet!" I get there and BOOM!


That is a sad story :,(

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Serene Repose
#74 - 2014-03-05 17:04:51 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Vyl Vit wrote:
Every time I go into null sec, I get a ship blown up. I'm out there looking for friends, and playmates. So, I say in local, "Hey everybody! Will you be my friends?" Invariably the reply is, "Yeah! We'll be your friends! Just come to such-and-such station so we can meet!" I get there and BOOM!


That is a sad story :(

Be careful with Vyl. He's kinda loose with the truth.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#75 - 2014-03-05 17:19:58 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Tippia wrote:
The latest statement was from the last set of CSM minutes, but it's been the same for close to two years now — just check the fanfest economy presentations. Oh, and the only highsec income nerf in recent years was the incursion adjustment… which they then reversed.

Only partially reversed. Overall income is still nerfed especially when looking at VG/AS.




Onictus wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
[Rubicon 1.1.] Level 3 Blitzing: 50M+ isk in assets per hour

Vargur Income running Level 4s without blitzing (Rubicon 1.1)

YMMV.

Basically, the anoms versus high-sec missions discussion seemed to boil down to:
a) you can make a good bit of liquid isk (as opposed to dealing with LP, loot, salvage) in a "cheap", "low skill" Ishtar, but with limited scalability, interruptions in the form of hot drops and cloakers, competition from other anom runners, etc.,
or
b) you could make "lots" of non-liquid isk (i.e. LP, loot, salvage), in an expensive, high-skill requirement marauder in high sec running level 4s with the ability to decline multiple missions per four hour block. Level 4s are an "infinite" resource that can be done in the "safety" of high-sec. The LP stores are a good bit more scalable than anoms, but they still require time, research, and market patience if you want to make the "big bucks."

/shrug


Scalability is kind of a big deal when you have thousands of accounts that need ships.

Like I said, if null rewards were such faucets we wouldn't all have alts in high sec.

Null is a huge faucet because nullbears refuse to use all the tools available. Don't get me wrong I don't blame them for hating on the ESS. CCP certainly should look at moving to a more useful LP based payment system. Null income would be better for those individuals if they weren't in an alliance/corp that rented out large sections of their space. Those corporations/alliances have decided that the needs of the individuals pale in comparison to the needs of the corporation/alliance. I have no real sympathy for those individuals who choose to stay in those corporations/alliances.

Blitzers running lvl 4 missions on the other hand are a massive sink since the real income is from LP which directly removes isk from circulation.


What tools exactly are we refusing to use?

The ESS is terrible due to the fact that it is easily raided, we need to keep an alt on it which would earn more if it was simply ratting and the cost means you need to do many hours of ratting to make your isk back.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#76 - 2014-03-05 17:38:59 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Tippia wrote:
The latest statement was from the last set of CSM minutes, but it's been the same for close to two years now — just check the fanfest economy presentations. Oh, and the only highsec income nerf in recent years was the incursion adjustment… which they then reversed.

Only partially reversed. Overall income is still nerfed especially when looking at VG/AS.


Why some people thought the small gang sites were supposed to pay that kind of isk in the 1st place is what's really crazy. fixing a terrible imbalance is never a 'nerf' (i also loved it how some people called CCPs fix of the high sec lvl 5 bug was a 'nerf' as well).


Quote:

Null is a huge faucet because nullbears refuse to use all the tools available. Don't get me wrong I don't blame them for hating on the ESS. CCP certainly should look at moving to a more useful LP based payment system. Null income would be better for those individuals if they weren't in an alliance/corp that rented out large sections of their space. Those corporations/alliances have decided that the needs of the individuals pale in comparison to the needs of the corporation/alliance. I have no real sympathy for those individuals who choose to stay in those corporations/alliances.

Blitzers running lvl 4 missions on the other hand are a massive sink since the real income is from LP which directly removes isk from circulation.


People ask why these discussions always devolve into high sec vs null income discussions. This is why. If some people were less attached to unfounded and ridiculous opinions (like the above quoted non-sense) an actual discussion could occur.

For example, this poster doesn't understand that renting occurs because it's more profitable than using the near worthless space for yourself. Renting itself is not the cause of people not using their own space.

Why in hell would anyone (who makes their isk by shooting npcs) live in a system that spawns maybe a single haven or a couple of forsaken hubs along with loads or the anomalies liken Hidden Rally points and hidden dens (ie anomalies that pay less than your average high sec lvl 3 mission, let alone lvl 4)? why live there when you can rent it to some guy or guys who don't mind (or know) how crappy it is?

Alliances that rent didn't decide the needs of an individual pale in comparison to the needs of everyone else. What happened is that the people in the alliances know how to do math.

It also doesn't matter that LP stores are an isk sink. We;'re not talking about the economy, but about individual income. The SoE LP I sold last night for sisters core probes did sink isk out of the economy, right before I sold those proves in Osmon and Faucetted someone else's isk right into my pockets.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#77 - 2014-03-06 02:19:55 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

Null is a huge faucet because nullbears refuse to use all the tools available. Don't get me wrong I don't blame them for hating on the ESS. CCP certainly should look at moving to a more useful LP based payment system. Null income would be better for those individuals if they weren't in an alliance/corp that rented out large sections of their space.


No it wouldn't. Gents owns 40 systems in Vale x 20 + (~2 naturals) anomolies = 880 anomolies, and they'd be lucky to have 50 ratters online. ie they typically need ~100 of their potential anomolies. Individual income is increased by owning more systems (for individuals), because it controls more locations where signatures spawn and signatures are very definately private income. if nobody else was in the plex, then as far as the alliance was concerned that a-type invuln didn't drop (i swear!) ie you've literally got the current way nullsec works backwards.

Quote:


Those corporations/alliances have decided that the needs of the individuals pale in comparison to the needs of the corporation/alliance. I have no real sympathy for those individuals who choose to stay in those corporations/alliances.



Ultimately I'd imagine the 2 largest costs for a CFC alliance is sov bills (which is literally owning more space for individuals to seek signatures in), and SRP, which is funding PVP of various shapes and sizes for individuals that participate. Given some CFC alliances have public accounts, you can actually have a look.

Quote:


Blitzers running lvl 4 missions on the other hand are a massive sink since the real income is from LP which directly removes isk from circulation.


Which is completely nullbears fault for not using the level 4 mission agent that spawns in every sov null syst.... oh wait....

In any case null alliance ship loss (and hence SRP) is vastly more important in sinking materials out of the game, than LP is for sinking cash out of the game, and infinite materials would rapidly ruin the game in a way infinite cash cannot.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2014-03-06 06:21:06 UTC
Regardless od where you are its possible to earn more ISK than you can reasonably spend.

People accumulate crazy amounts of ISK in this game.
Salvos Rhoska
#79 - 2014-03-06 08:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Im wondering whether one core cause of Missioning differential might be because the Agent LP payout is too static and unresponsive ? ISK/Bounty/Salvage/Loot are fine in and of themselves, but the LP is also hinged to what that faction actually has in its LP Store.

So for example relating to SoE farming, though players do create competition to each other in termsmof selling the LP converted goods, the games systems itself are unresponsive and static to that, which I find is a bit antiquated and "boring".

Perhaps if Agents offered a dynamic LP reward based on how many Missions of that level and mission type have been completed for them, as opposed to and measured against Agents of the geometrically opposed faction Agents? So that as one factions Agents are farmed to the max for LP, it provides increasing incentive to start doing another factions LP instead. In-game, it makes a kind of sense, in that Factions whos Agents are not being utilised react to it by "hey guys, nobodies doing our missions, how about we provide a better reward that Faction X (our competition) to attract more business?

This could also lead to untill now undesirable mission types becoming more lucrative, such as distribution. Since the LP reward would hinge on how many others are doing thatnmission type and possivly level for that Faction as well as how many are doing it for diametrically opposed NPC faction.

Could lead to a similar swing as in FW atm, where players deliberately "change sides" to benefit from the better % on the other faction, but also makes the game environment itself more dynamic and responsive to player behavior and encourages more player mobility. Also gives an "underdog" faction more incentive to be farmed, even if their LP store is a bit crap, because the relatively fewer players that are running them would be earning greater amounts of LP to convert to offset that.

I dont entirely understand all the issues at hand here, and my suggestion may infact be completely stupid, but I do think overall EVE could use a more dynamically responsive NPC environment to help shift and disperse player concentratations around much of the otherwise empty or untraversed regions of space. Making unpopular LP Agents in untraversed space pay out better LP than their diametrically related NPC Agents of that type and level, would create more opportunities for competition and profit rather than piling up on the "popular" Agents/Space.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2014-03-06 13:06:04 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Im wondering whether one core cause of Missioning differential might be because the Agent LP payout is too static and unresponsive ? ISK/Bounty/Salvage/Loot are fine in and of themselves, but the LP is also hinged to what that faction actually has in its LP Store.



Over the years isk has flooded into the system which has had the result of pushing up the value of LP items. You get about half as much for your isk as you used to back in say 2007. This means that, along with nerfs, that anoms have in effect fallen in value because their rewards are mostly isk while missions are mostly rewarded in items which have gained value. This is why belt ratting which used to be ok income is now rubbish and falls well below level 3 income.