These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Stealth Winmatar Buff
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2011-11-28 15:03:56 UTC
strange this is from patch notes:
"All sizes of Javelin ammunition have had their capacitor penalty removed.
Javelin, Gleam and Quake have had their tracking penalty turned into a bonus. The tracking speed multiplier has been increased from .75 to 1.25 x.
Hail has had its falloff penalty removed completely.
Falloff for XL autocannons has been increased by 50%."

hmm so is this outdated?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2011-11-28 15:06:28 UTC
Not really


The Arty tech 2 ammos were beyond useless anyway, so that is a welcome improvement.

Hail is still going to be meh, and no one is going to use the arty amoo STILL if it has that ROF penalty attached. I mean really, its already 12 seconds with three gyros, NO ONE is going to use it.

Ever.
Goose99
#43 - 2011-11-28 15:45:41 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Asuka Smith wrote:
Every race is balanced, some are just more balanced than others. Why don't you try flying minmatar before you complain.



I do
-


Everyone and their mother now flies Winmatar and try to kite each other, it is thus balanced.Cool
Ziester
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2011-11-28 15:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ziester
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Being fast = dictating engagement range = Win

You do realize there are counters to that right ?
You do realize Eve's not a 1v1 game right ?

What exactly are you whining about ?

If you're not happy about them dictating engagement range, then how about you fit your ship to counter that ?

Pop, rock, Metal radio station
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2011-11-28 16:03:46 UTC
Ziester wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Being fast = dictating engagement range = Win

You do realize there are counters to that right ?
You do realize Eve's not a 1v1 game right ?

What exactly are you whining about ?

If you're not happy about them dictating engagement range, then how about you fit your ship to counter that ?

like what?
Goose99
#46 - 2011-11-28 16:03:57 UTC
Ziester wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Being fast = dictating engagement range = Win

You do realize there are counters to that right ?


Gratz, you have found the holy grail and discovered the meaning of Eve. Care to enlighten the rest of us?Lol
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#47 - 2011-11-28 16:14:05 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
How to fit a brawling Minmatar ship:
1. Fit largest autocannons
2. If applicable, fit correctly sized neuts
3. Fit oversize/extra plates
4. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:gyrostabs you feel like
5. Fit MWD
6. Fit all those mids with whatever you want. Webs, cap boosters, sebos, anything
You now have absurd dps, speed, tank and utility.
7. Winmatar at all PVP

How to fit armour anything else:
1. Fit largest guns
2. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
3. Realise you can't fit a tank with your guns
4. Move the guns down a size
5. Fit oversize/extra plates or armour reps
6. Fit DCU, and then whatever ratio of EANM:damage mods you feel like
7. Fit MWD
8. Realise that MWD gets you over the powergrid
9. Move a gun down another size or reduce the size of a plate
10. Fit warp disruptor
11. Realise you're over CPU. Make warp disruptor meta
12. Fit cap booster.
13. Realise you're over powergrid. Downsize the cap booster.
14. Realise you were over CPU as well. Make the DCU meta and replace an EANM with adaptive nano plating
You now have an extremely tight fit, with less dps, tank, speed and utility than a Minmatar counterpart
15. Die terribly for not flying Winmatar.


Actually this is still true after patch, some ships will be faster and will have some extra cap due to weapons being less hungry for cap, pg requirements but the thing is that they are not what they should be for some supposed "hybrids buff"

CCP Tallest posted about this release explaining that all the changes will not be on this release since hybrids need a lot of tweaks until they become satisfying.

So keep yourself updated on "Server Test" threads "hybrids", test stuff on SISI post your feedback and if in 2 months there is no changes then you can rage on CCP Tallest.

Me too, I'm looking at CCP and specially Tallest about this "hybrids stuff", for the meanwhile I'll still be flying Vagas, Cynabals, Munins and scimis, ho and the new Tornado OC.
Ziester
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-11-28 16:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ziester
Goose99 wrote:
Ziester wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Being fast = dictating engagement range = Win

You do realize there are counters to that right ?


Gratz, you have found the holy grail and discovered the meaning of Eve. Care to enlighten the rest of us?Lol

Jeez...

1°) Being fast
Fight fire with fire, use Huggins/Rapiers. If you have a bottomless wallet, slap faction webs to your fits.
Decent alternative/addition would be Lachesis/Arazu with Dampeners w/ Locking range scripts and/or warp scramblers.

2°) Dictating engagement range
Add some Pilgrims/Curses to your fleet / Have your support to fit Tracking Disruptors w/ Optimal Range disruption scripts.

Either they are bold and try to engage, then die,
either they warp off and you live.

Pop, rock, Metal radio station
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#49 - 2011-11-28 16:45:58 UTC
Ziester wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Ziester wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Being fast = dictating engagement range = Win

You do realize there are counters to that right ?


Gratz, you have found the holy grail and discovered the meaning of Eve. Care to enlighten the rest of us?Lol

Jeez...

1°) Being fast
Fight fire with fire, use Huggins/Rapiers. If you have a bottomless wallet, slap faction webs to your fits.
Decent alternative/addition would be Lachesis/Arazu with Dampeners w/ Locking range scripts and/or warp scramblers.

2°) Dictating engagement range
Add some Pilgrims/Curses to your fleet / Have your support to fit Tracking Disruptors w/ Optimal Range disruption scripts.

Either they are bold and try to engage, then die,
either they warp off and you live.


If I rephrase for you:

"Unless you are also flying Minmatar ships, the best you can reasonably hope for is to chase the Minmatar ships off."

Your example is a perfect illustration of the problem. ;)
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#50 - 2011-11-28 16:54:23 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Ziester wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Ziester wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Being fast = dictating engagement range = Win

You do realize there are counters to that right ?


Gratz, you have found the holy grail and discovered the meaning of Eve. Care to enlighten the rest of us?Lol

Jeez...

1°) Being fast
Fight fire with fire, use Huggins/Rapiers. If you have a bottomless wallet, slap faction webs to your fits.
Decent alternative/addition would be Lachesis/Arazu with Dampeners w/ Locking range scripts and/or warp scramblers.

2°) Dictating engagement range
Add some Pilgrims/Curses to your fleet / Have your support to fit Tracking Disruptors w/ Optimal Range disruption scripts.

Either they are bold and try to engage, then die,
either they warp off and you live.


If I rephrase for you:

"Unless you are also flying Minmatar ships, the best you can reasonably hope for is to chase the Minmatar ships off."

Your example is a perfect illustration of the problem. ;)



Thing is, the best counter to minmatar ships is minmatar/angel ships Lol
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2011-11-28 17:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Krios Ahzek
I just switched from Amarr to Minmatar and holy turd it's like day and night.

I have the grid to fit a full rack of weapons.
Unlike Amarr, I don't cap out in 1 minute 37 despite having trained cap skills to 4 and 5. I have a hard time finding modules to use my cap with.
I have sick tracking and more DPS.
Okay, so optimal is 1 km instead of 5. Big deal when I move at 700 m/s with my perma-afterburner.
I have a destroyer that's actually good even pre-buff.
I have midslots!
I can outright nuke people with grouped artillery fire.

The only downside is actually requiring ammo, but like all monetary barriers, it's not a real downside if you outperform everything else.

(Amarr are therefore superior at PVE where ammo cost has to be factored in)

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#52 - 2011-11-28 17:21:33 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
They reinstated the falloff penalty, but at a reduced value (-25%).


Patch notes for Crucible and the stats on SiSI both say otherwise. Penalty is removed in both instances.

CCP Tallest said one thing, CCP did something different.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2011-11-28 17:47:12 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
Aamrr wrote:
They reinstated the falloff penalty, but at a reduced value (-25%).


Patch notes for Crucible and the stats on SiSI both say otherwise. Penalty is removed in both instances.

CCP Tallest said one thing, CCP did something different.

Matar has to be OP!!!
What would do those kids do when they find out their ships are the best? leave eve ?:O
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#54 - 2011-11-28 17:56:47 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:

If I rephrase for you:

"Unless you are also flying Minmatar ships, the best you can reasonably hope for is to chase the Minmatar ships off."

Your example is a perfect illustration of the problem. ;)

By your logic, force recons/stealth bombers are the most OP ships in the game, because nothing can catch them once they cloak.


Let me ask you (and all the other anti-minmatar whiners) something:

What exactly do you want CCP to do about minmatar? They're already notably weaker than amarr ships at actually fighting, and pretty much regardless of any nerf they get to their combat stats they will be used in pvp (because again, people are obsessed with KB stats, and being able to pick your fights gives better stats than actually being good at fighting).

If you reduce their speed, then you're losing the only real advantage they have (fitting difficulties are also irrelevant, because a minmatar ship with top tier mods is still worse at brawling than an amarr ship that had to make some sacrifices to get everything to fit). Without speed there is absolutely no reason to fly the vast majority of the minmatar ships, because once speed is taken out of the equation, amarr are provably better.(and nerfing minmatar speed would just have you whining about gallente, who are the next fastest race).

One race is going to be faster, short of CCP making all races have identical speeds. Said race will always have an advantage at picking engagements. A great way to balance this is by making the fastest ships have the least DPS and EHP. What's that? CCP already does this? Stop whining then.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#55 - 2011-11-28 18:35:11 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

Let me ask you (and all the other anti-minmatar whiners) something:

What exactly do you want CCP to do about minmatar? They're already notably weaker than amarr ships at actually fighting, and pretty much regardless of any nerf they get to their combat stats they will be used in pvp (because again, people are obsessed with KB stats, and being able to pick your fights gives better stats than actually being good at fighting).


I think the thing that most concerns me is that everyone seems to want projectiles and/or Minnie ships nerfed to the point that the most common Minnie ships are balanced even from the perspective of their detractors. Even if we assume that they're successful and the ships (Cynabal, Mach, Cane, Vaga, Rupture, Sleip) are merely balanced (not nerfed into oblivion), it means that the rest of the lineup has gone from passable to utter ****. There simply wouldn't be a Minnie ship worth flying anymore.

If they want to nerf Minnie I'm A-Ok with it - I don't fly my Minnie alt for anything but gang boosts and triage carrier work anyway - and its not as though Liang doesn't have other options. I'm just concerned that it removes the high points from the race while leaving other the race's high points totally intact. I think a global nerf to projectiles in order to balance the (questionably) "overpowered" ships would require strong boosts to the rest of the race's ships.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#56 - 2011-11-28 19:19:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
Cambarus wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:

If I rephrase for you:

"Unless you are also flying Minmatar ships, the best you can reasonably hope for is to chase the Minmatar ships off."

Your example is a perfect illustration of the problem. ;)

By your logic, force recons/stealth bombers are the most OP ships in the game, because nothing can catch them once they cloak.


Let me ask you (and all the other anti-minmatar whiners) something:

What exactly do you want CCP to do about minmatar? They're already notably weaker than amarr ships at actually fighting, and pretty much regardless of any nerf they get to their combat stats they will be used in pvp (because again, people are obsessed with KB stats, and being able to pick your fights gives better stats than actually being good at fighting).

If you reduce their speed, then you're losing the only real advantage they have (fitting difficulties are also irrelevant, because a minmatar ship with top tier mods is still worse at brawling than an amarr ship that had to make some sacrifices to get everything to fit). Without speed there is absolutely no reason to fly the vast majority of the minmatar ships, because once speed is taken out of the equation, amarr are provably better.(and nerfing minmatar speed would just have you whining about gallente, who are the next fastest race).

One race is going to be faster, short of CCP making all races have identical speeds. Said race will always have an advantage at picking engagements. A great way to balance this is by making the fastest ships have the least DPS and EHP. What's that? CCP already does this? Stop whining then.


As I believe I've said a number of times in this thread, I dont want Matar to be nerfed (nor Amarr). But the other races need some ship buffing/rebalancing.

Its ok for Matar to be the best at some things. But right now, they are the best, or among the best, at a great many things. And to top it off (and IMHO this is the real reason above all) Matar ships have the best tank in the game - GTFO. The Matar line is really good, or reasonably passable at most roles in the game, while at the same time have the uber (isk-wise) ability to leave when they are overmatched. That is not the case for the vast majority of Amarr, Gallente and not-Drakes. Really - I think this is the real reason so many people fly them (and the ever-present drake) - you have far less risk of losing your ship.

The other problem is that unlike many other MMO, you cant just re-spec overnight if you want to change roles. It is often a month long process or more + the lost opportunity cost of training something else that you need more.

Again - I dont favor nerfs. I favor buffs to balance. I dont claim to have all of the expertise to solve the issue, but the issue is there, like it or not.

I also think it would go a long way toward solving many of the nerf cries by CCP issuing some kind of policy statement (that should probably also be better explained during character creation) that explains in greater detail the expected role of a certain race's ships so people's expectations are better controlled. If they want Matar to be the best at X area of PVP, then they just need to say so. Otherwise, silly people like me expect some attempt at balance.

Just my opinion.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-11-28 19:27:48 UTC
The issue isn't Minmatar so much

Mimatar are Amarr are pretty decently balanced with each other.


Its just that Gallente and to a lesser extent Caldari are well horrible because the primary weapon of TWO races blows goats.


....and don't give me that "Caldari are a Missile race" **** because they aren't just like Gallente aren't a drone race, for ever ymissile and drone **** there are at LEAST 4 turret boats and EVERY single turret boat is crap.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#58 - 2011-11-28 19:37:48 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:


As I believe I've said a number of times in this thread, I dont want Matar to be nerfed (nor Amarr). But the other races need some ship buffing/rebalancing.

Its ok for Matar to be the best at some things. But right now, they are the best, or among the best, at a great many things. And to top it off (and IMHO this is the real reason above all) Matar ships have the best tank in the game - GTFO. The Matar line is really good, or reasonably passable at most roles in the game, while at the same time have the uber (isk-wise) ability to leave when they are overmatched. That is not the case for the vast majority of Amarr, Gallente and not-Drakes. Really - I think this is the real reason so many people fly them (and the ever-present drake) - you have far less risk of losing your ship.

The other problem is that unlike many other MMO, you cant just re-spec overnight if you want to change roles. It is often a month long process or more + the lost opportunity cost of training something else that you need more.

Again - I dont favor nerfs. I favor buffs to balance. I dont claim to have all of the expertise to solve the issue, but the issue is there, like it or not.

I also think it would go a long way toward solving many of the nerf cries by CCP issuing some kind of policy statement (that should probably also be better explained during character creation) that explains in greater detail the expected role of a certain race's ships so people's expectations are better controlled. If they want Matar to be the best at X area of PVP, then they just need to say so. Otherwise, silly people like me expect some attempt at balance.

Just my opinion.

You are aware that hybrids are getting buffed yeh? Amarr are already every bit as viable as minmatar, trading speed for combat strength. If you want to see hybrids buffed, the patch cometh, and if you want to see amarr buffed, can I have some of what you're smoking?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#59 - 2011-11-28 19:42:05 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:

Its ok for Matar to be the best at some things. But right now, they are the best, or among the best, at a great many things. And to top it off (and IMHO this is the real reason above all) Matar ships have the best tank in the game - GTFO. The Matar line is really good, or reasonably passable at most roles in the game, while at the same time have the uber (isk-wise) ability to leave when they are overmatched. That is not the case for the vast majority of Amarr, Gallente and not-Drakes. Really - I think this is the real reason so many people fly them (and the ever-present drake) - you have far less risk of losing your ship.


The only role where I'd say Minmatar are hands down better is at GTFO. At actual fighting (including damage dealing) they are clearly inferior to most anyone else (but especially Amarr). Now don't get me wrong - GTFO is cool but it just doesn't generally get you many kills.

Also, you mention that you favor buffs to nerfs, but I think you should consider the roles that you want in combat. By buffing individual Gallente and Caldari ships you're increasing the balance of power against tanking (active and otherwise). By nerfing Minmatar you'd be swinging in the other direction. I tend to favor the smallest change possible to bring the game back to rough parity - this means I'm in favor of fittings buffs to several Caldari missile hulls (as an example).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#60 - 2011-11-28 19:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
Yes I am aware of the patch. I am encouraged. (I actually bought fittings for a couple of 200mm Rail Thorax just for kicks - they will create LOL lossmails, but I want to test the tracking of them at disruptor range). I think they should do nothing to any other races until this patch shakes out and we see how it goes. Too many changes at once can hide real issues.

If I said Amarr need general buffing, I didnt mean to. I thought I said they were balanced with Matar. They Amarr (and everyone else) do need some individual ship-rebalances though.

EDIT: And Liang, I agree with you. Baby steps are best.