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When will capitals be balanced?

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Author
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Moist Towelettes.
#21 - 2014-02-27 14:51:39 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:


The use of the Nid is not due to a prejudice against shield tankers as it can be armour tanked - it's that when the Nid is tanked in shield it's very difficult to fit shield transfers to it, and when tanked in armour it is similarly difficult to load with Remote Armour Reps - it therefore rarely has an effective synergy with its fleetmates and is therefore not particularly valuable.



I've been doing some testing on the test server and have found a shield tanked Nidhoggur and Remote Armor Repair works well if it is a solo Triage Carrier. The massive burst tank from shield tanking allows you to tank multiple Dreads for quite a while and at the same time you can support an armor subcap doctrine (I'm thinking Armor T3s will work well with it). Not a bad cap time either and solid buffer with Power Diagnostics in the lows (which doesn't sacrifice your shield boosting power).

All in all Nid is in a good Niche of POS repping and solo Triage I'd argue. As soon as you take it away from logi work on structures or bring 2 carriers instead of one.. the Archon instantly becomes superior.
Serith Ellecon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-02-27 14:58:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Serith Ellecon
As a wormhole cap pilot, these are the issues I've seen:

Thanny:
Fitting- Fitted for armour tank and full triage armour reps, it's short on grid enough to need implants.
Defenses- Too weak in comparison to an Archon.
Hull bonus : Pretty much useless as fighters suck. No energy transfer range bonus, so of limited use in a fleet.

Archon:
No real downsides to this one other than it is boring to look at. However, nerfing it significantly will hurt in wormholes. Archons being the only armour carrier capable of standing up to 3 full waves of escalation sleeper battleships for long enough to run sites.

Chimera:
Used similarly to the Archon in shield bonused wormholes, but extremely tight on CPU, and like the thanny, needs implants to work right.

Nidhoggur:
Slot layout: Terrible. Not enough mids to run a good shield tank.
Fitting: Not enough of anything
Capacitor: Runs out about 30 picoseconds after you get in the thing. (may be a slight exaggeration, but not by much)
Hull bonus: Pointless as it will run out of cap if you use any of your lows/mids for any kind of a tank worthy of the name. No energy transfer range bonus, so of limited use in a fleet. (Plus - did I mention capacitor issues?)

In short, the Archon is pretty much the perfect carrier for anything you'd want an armour carrier for, except repping a large POS shield. Every other carrier is second rate by comparison, and the poor niddy didn't even make it to be rated because it ran out of cap on the way and couldn't make the last jump.

Yes, something needs to be done to lower the Archon infestation of Nullsec, but not at the expense of the other uses.
Could I suggest the re-balance be centred around the triage module? If that were made more effective, then a significant change to the base carrier stats could be made without hurting the wormholers.

Inappropriate signature added.  CCP Notarealdev.

Lina Theist
Rosendal Research and Development
#23 - 2014-02-28 06:16:15 UTC
Serith Ellecon wrote:
As a wormhole cap pilot, these are the issues I've seen:
[...]
Archon:
No real downsides to this one other than it is boring to look at. However, nerfing it significantly will hurt in wormholes. Archons being the only armour carrier capable of standing up to 3 full waves of escalation sleeper battleships for long enough to run sites.
[...]
Yes, something needs to be done to lower the Archon infestation of Nullsec, but not at the expense of the other uses.
Could I suggest the re-balance be centred around the triage module? If that were made more effective, then a significant change to the base carrier stats could be made without hurting the wormholers.


As a wormholer myself, I say adapt. If you don't want to nerf the archon because it'll impact on our isk/h then you are the wrong kind of wormholer imho. While I myself don't know whether I think all carriers should be nerfed to different extents or just the archon (chimera as well), I know for certain that the archon needs to be brought in line with the others.
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#24 - 2014-02-28 10:53:47 UTC
Lina Theist wrote:

...

As a wormholer myself, I say adapt. If you don't want to nerf the archon because it'll impact on our isk/h then you are the wrong kind of wormholer imho. While I myself don't know whether I think all carriers should be nerfed to different extents or just the archon (chimera as well), I know for certain that the archon needs to be brought in line with the others.


So - make the archon impossible to fit, have half the tank, make it impossible to fit armour reppers while having a local armour tank. Get rid of its cap range bonus .. should bring it inline.

... let imagine thats not how it will happen.

Chimera - more CPU should fix it.
Thanatos - local rep bonus should be good.
Archon - lets leave it alone more or less.
Nid - give it an insane cap recharge rate bonus. Fix the fitting issues, fix the flipped tank fitting issues.

Add implants for shield akin to slaves, or remove slaves from caps - it unbalances all tiers.

Basically would make the Thanatos and Nid more 'solo' logistic. The Chimera and Archon gang.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#25 - 2014-02-28 18:21:48 UTC
Question for CCP Ytterbium:

Will there be a need to 'rebalance' the range of four Freighters during the capital ship rebalancing ??

Personally I don't feel there is a need to do anything to them even with the recent changes to warp speed.

If the Freighters were 'rebalanced' would they be touched by the ugly stick..... ahem.....I meant will their BPO's suffer the indignity of needing 'extra materials' ??

Thank you in advance for any thoughts you may have regarding this issue. Smile

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

bundy bear
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-02-28 18:48:14 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We're getting there.

During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.

There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.



No mention of the rorqual, the only ship in the game that you have to sit in a POS bubble to use.
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Moist Towelettes.
#27 - 2014-03-01 04:32:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Blodhgarm Dethahal
Rab See wrote:


Thanatos - local rep bonus should be good.

Nid - give it an insane cap recharge rate bonus. Fix the fitting issues, fix the flipped tank fitting issues.

Add implants for shield akin to slaves, or remove slaves from caps - it unbalances all tiers.

Basically would make the Thanatos and Nid more 'solo' logistic. The Chimera and Archon gang.


An interesting concept for the Thanatos but what would would we do for the Nyx then? Does it keep its damage bonus or are we going to mirror the bonus?

For the Nid.. which bonus would you swap out for the cap recharge rate bonus? As it stands I'd argue it could use a little more cap built into the hull and more fitting space and it would be golden as a solo Triage Carrier (I'd agrue it fills the role quite nicely already, just a few small tweaks here and there).

And you must realize Shield like Slave Implants will never happen because of the way shield mechanics work. If you add shield Implants you also indirectly boost your Shield Recharge per second as well allowing for better passive tanks. Do you really want that double boost from one set of implants? It sounds broken.. it is broken..

I do agree with the thought of Archon/Chimera being gang Logi and Thanny/Nid solo Logi.
Gnadolin
Space Pioneers
#28 - 2014-03-01 07:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Gnadolin
And no one here sees that the armor tanked ships need the slaves to keep up with shield caps, not to get ahead.

Compare the EHP with proper fits. The Wyvern exceeds a slaved Aeon by a lot. And even the Hel will win a 1on1 against a slaved Nyx due to passive shield recharge.

A Slave like set for shields is neither needed nor anywhere close to fair.

Edit: OK checked the numbers again, Leviathan with 46M EHP(without its own bonus) is best in game, followed by Wyvern Wirth 41M (both with CA1-4).
A slaved Avatar reaches mere 40M. 27M without slaves.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#29 - 2014-03-01 07:53:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
BTW, the introduction of CA-3 and CA-4 genolutions has made the set very good indeed for shield caps/supercaps.

Quote:

The Wyvern btw is the ship with the most EHP in game, having even more then the titans.


Nope, a proper Levi tanked gets more.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#30 - 2014-03-01 09:10:36 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
BTW, the introduction of CA-3 and CA-4 genolutions has made the set very good indeed for shield caps/supercaps.

Quote:

The Wyvern btw is the ship with the most EHP in game, having even more then the titans.


Nope, a proper Levi tanked gets more.


And significantly helps with the fitting issues.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Gnadolin
Space Pioneers
#31 - 2014-03-01 09:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Gnadolin
Edited numbers into the above post to point out that shield supers are superior even with slaves.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-03-01 17:42:26 UTC
Some remarks:

- A slaved armor cap has less hp than an equally expensive shield cap.
- Genolutions are a shield caps best friend. With them, the Chimera is a better triage and a better slowcat than the Archon.
- The Nighoddur flip tank + genos works in solo triage situations that do not escalate which is way to rare.
- The Thanatos would be balanced the instant fighters would be used again. Fighters need fixing, not the Thanatos.
- Once you scale up tot dozens upon dozens of carriers, the Archon does the pantheon thing better than the Chimera due to cap use
- There is a huge amount of inertia in cap warfare due to experience of pilots and their skills. Same reason why Jita is the trade capital of New Eden: inertia.
- The Archons biggest advantage is that it can do each and every role well with just the basic T2 fit. It is also the only carrier that can scale from small engagements up to the largest with a simple refitting of T2 modules a.k.a no-one ever got fired for bringing an Archon.
firepup82
Lost in Unknown Space
DARKNESS.
#33 - 2014-03-02 23:30:47 UTC
Ehh probably because slaves effect caps and there is no shield variant crystals do not effect capitals that is why most supers are armor
firepup82
Lost in Unknown Space
DARKNESS.
#34 - 2014-03-02 23:34:28 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Some remarks:

- A slaved armor cap has less hp than an equally expensive shield cap.
- Genolutions are a shield caps best friend. With them, the Chimera is a better triage and a better slowcat than the Archon.
- The Nighoddur flip tank + genos works in solo triage situations that do not escalate which is way to rare.
- The Thanatos would be balanced the instant fighters would be used again. Fighters need fixing, not the Thanatos.
- Once you scale up tot dozens upon dozens of carriers, the Archon does the pantheon thing better than the Chimera due to cap use
- There is a huge amount of inertia in cap warfare due to experience of pilots and their skills. Same reason why Jita is the trade capital of New Eden: inertia.
- The Archons biggest advantage is that it can do each and every role well with just the basic T2 fit. It is also the only carrier that can scale from small engagements up to the largest with a simple refitting of T2 modules a.k.a no-one ever got fired for bringing an Archon.


Didn't realize passive shield regent of a few hundred can add 5+ million ehp in supers good to know
firepup82
Lost in Unknown Space
DARKNESS.
#35 - 2014-03-02 23:40:26 UTC
Overheat in aeon can get 166 mil ehp shields can't come close to that
Gnadolin
Space Pioneers
#36 - 2014-03-03 07:41:50 UTC
Pic or gtfo.

And if you consider actually reading, above is pointed out that armor caps need the slaves to keep up with shield ones.
And dont get ahead of them.
Without slaves no one would even consider armor caps. And even with slaves they are inferior to shield caps.
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#37 - 2014-03-03 11:33:05 UTC
Gnadolin wrote:
Pic or gtfo.

And if you consider actually reading, above is pointed out that armor caps need the slaves to keep up with shield ones.
And dont get ahead of them.
Without slaves no one would even consider armor caps. And even with slaves they are inferior to shield caps.



Just to correct you, armour supers need the slaves. Sadly shield supers need the reppers. The lack of 'fixes' to carriers has resulted in an unassailable armour meta. Shield supers may have a minor ehp advantage, but just name your Super 'primary' if its shield tanked.

The imbalance at the start of your capital career means you never get to the point of choosing a path, its dictated by the 'unfixed' armour meta.

Going back then. Carriers.

They provide reps and cap. Sadly, the Nid and Than dont. They cant cap transfer to range, cant tank properly because of this. All but the Archon have fitting issues, and Slaves exacerbate the issue ... Genolutions help the Chimera no doubt, but the other two are just crap.
Nimrod vanHall
Van Mij Belastingvrij
#38 - 2014-03-03 11:43:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod vanHall
firepup82 wrote:
Ehh probably because slaves effect caps and there is no shield variant crystals do not effect capitals that is why most supers are armor


Most Supers are armor because most alliances fly armor, caps, its kind a kind of self sustaining thingy.

The reason caps are supers started to be armor is that along long time ago at teh start of the Super Era,is that: Links and other skills that increased armor were applied immeadiatle to both maximum armor HP and current armor HP while shield skills and links only applied to the maximum.


the effect was that an armor cap jumping in a system was immediately at max health while a shield cap, needed to be repped or needed its passiev shield recharge to get to maximum shields first .
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#39 - 2014-03-03 13:34:21 UTC
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Rab See wrote:


Thanatos - local rep bonus should be good.

Nid - give it an insane cap recharge rate bonus. Fix the fitting issues, fix the flipped tank fitting issues.

Add implants for shield akin to slaves, or remove slaves from caps - it unbalances all tiers.

Basically would make the Thanatos and Nid more 'solo' logistic. The Chimera and Archon gang.


An interesting concept for the Thanatos but what would would we do for the Nyx then? Does it keep its damage bonus or are we going to mirror the bonus?

For the Nid.. which bonus would you swap out for the cap recharge rate bonus? As it stands I'd argue it could use a little more cap built into the hull and more fitting space and it would be golden as a solo Triage Carrier (I'd agrue it fills the role quite nicely already, just a few small tweaks here and there).

And you must realize Shield like Slave Implants will never happen because of the way shield mechanics work. If you add shield Implants you also indirectly boost your Shield Recharge per second as well allowing for better passive tanks. Do you really want that double boost from one set of implants? It sounds broken.. it is broken..

I do agree with the thought of Archon/Chimera being gang Logi and Thanny/Nid solo Logi.


Ok - I would trade - and I mean this sincerely, the drone per level bonus on the Nid. Something needs to be sorted in the context of its turd status. Fitting is a joke as is its capacitor. Hell, lets make it a cap use by reppers bonus and dump the drone bonus.

On the supers mirror bonus, what use are the repping bonuses of the Thanatos and Nid when it comes down to cap transfers and range, and we all know how crap Supers are for that role. The only real use in Supers is cap transfer for capping up where range is key in gangs.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#40 - 2014-03-03 17:16:46 UTC
Klymer wrote:
Soon™


Beat me to it. But yeah. It's gonna be a while unfortunately.

As James Amril-Kesh put it, we still have a ways to go. Recons, HICs, Logi, and Blops to rebalance for T2, all T3s (nerf them), and pirates yet remain for subcaps. Pirate frigs are announced if you haven't seen it yet. But I don't see why CCP couldn't hit caps at the same time as a lesser project like Logi and HICs. I agree that those two categories are generally well-balanced and shouldn't require a lot of effort.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY