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The common misconception of signature radius and guns
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Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-11-28 10:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
A lot of people think that a signature radius gives your enemies guns some passive miss chance or similar which really isn't the case.

The size of your ship does one thing to guns: Modifying your enemies tracking.

How does this work?
gun tracking * (target sig radius / gun sig resolution)
So if the target is twice the size of your gun your tracking is effectively doubled.
If the target on the other hand is half the size of your signature resolution your tracking is halved.

So what does this mean?
A small signature radius does NOT help you if you are not moving.
In a small ship a battleship have no problem hitting you if you are both sitting still or moving towards/away from each other.
A MWD does barely anything for your speed tank, the 500% increase in speed and sig radius cancels each other out as long as you keep having as much angular velocity as possible. This can be mitigated a bit by having high propulsion skills and/or a faction/deadspace/officer MWD.
A web and TP does the same thing, the web got stronger strength while the TP have range.

How can i use this knowledge?
Use a small signature to be better at speed tanking.
Understand what you can track/hit, at a long range the angular velocity is very low which means its easy for a BS to snipe frigs.
Aamrr
#2 - 2011-11-28 11:17:37 UTC
Mostly true, up to this point...

Nalha Saldana wrote:
A MWD does nothing for your speed tank, the 500% increase in speed and sig radius cancels each other out as long as you keep having as much angular velocity as possible.


No microwarpdrive gives a 500% speed increase. Anyone that can fit a microwarpdrive will have trained acceleration control to at least IV, increasing the effect of that module by 20%. 500*1.2 = 600. This makes you 6x larger but 7x faster, a 17% improvement to your speed tank. This is before you consider the fact that propulsion modules are affected by the ship's mass ratio, so a 1MN MWD will provide an even greater speed increase to a ship under 1 million kg.

And of course all of this ignores the fact that many higher-grade MWDs reduce the signature penalty.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-11-28 11:27:22 UTC
until you MWD through a bomb explosion

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-11-28 12:51:08 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Mostly true, up to this point...

Nalha Saldana wrote:
A MWD does nothing for your speed tank, the 500% increase in speed and sig radius cancels each other out as long as you keep having as much angular velocity as possible.


No microwarpdrive gives a 500% speed increase. Anyone that can fit a microwarpdrive will have trained acceleration control to at least IV, increasing the effect of that module by 20%. 500*1.2 = 600. This makes you 6x larger but 7x faster, a 17% improvement to your speed tank. This is before you consider the fact that propulsion modules are affected by the ship's mass ratio, so a 1MN MWD will provide an even greater speed increase to a ship under 1 million kg.

And of course all of this ignores the fact that many higher-grade MWDs reduce the signature penalty.


Ah yes the skills does increase it a bit.
Only the faction, deadspace and officer MWDs have a smaller impact on sig radius.

Skippermonkey wrote:
until you MWD through a bomb explosion


Yes, these stats are only true for guns, both missiles and bombs (not smartbombs) do more damage when you have a bigger sig radius.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-11-28 12:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
EDIT: oops wrong button, edit not quote :S
Cap Tyrian
Guiding Hand Social Club
#6 - 2011-11-28 13:17:45 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
A lot of people think that a signature radius gives your enemies guns some passive miss chance or similar which really isn't the case.

The size of your ship does one thing: Modifying your enemies tracking.



SHshsh !, don't tell that to anyone! especially not on the forums !


Move along, only lies here !

Moving is contra productive on small camouflaged ships. Thats true, I'm trustworthy. Why else do you think so many spaceships have nice camouflage, not only for the cool looks, obviously!
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-11-28 13:32:31 UTC
This is also the reason dreads can track supercaps who are moving, they get 15-16x mod on tracking titans and 11-12x vs supercarriers.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#8 - 2011-11-28 14:16:27 UTC
I understand this generally, but I dont really do math so let me ask a question of those of you that do.

I understand the transversal velocity column on the overview. I dont understand how it is different than the angulare velocity column, or how to read the angular velocity column. Is it just the same info in a different form? In any event, you ideally want both of them to zero, right?
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2011-11-28 14:27:12 UTC
And thats why matar sig radius should be changed with caldari.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-11-28 14:27:47 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
I understand this generally, but I dont really do math so let me ask a question of those of you that do.

I understand the transversal velocity column on the overview. I dont understand how it is different than the angulare velocity column, or how to read the angular velocity column. Is it just the same info in a different form? In any event, you ideally want both of them to zero, right?


Angular velocity is the true number that compares to tracking, its expressed in rad/sec.
Rad stands for Radians and 1.0 radian is the distance to your target so if you travel at 1000m/s around a target with a distance of exact 1000m your angular velocity is 1.0, if you travel at 500m/s its 0.5 and at 2000m/s its 2.0.
Most guns tracking is way lower then these numbers but so is also the speed/distance numbers in eve.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-11-28 14:32:13 UTC
I dont see why people in eve are so obsessed with transversal, if you have angular for comparing tracking and velocity for knowing how fast they actually move you are set for knowing enough about your opponent.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#12 - 2011-11-28 14:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
Nalha Saldana wrote:
I dont see why people in eve are so obsessed with transversal, if you have angular for comparing tracking and velocity for knowing how fast they actually move you are set for knowing enough about your opponent.


Because some of us were literature/law majors who also took logic classes to opt out of all of the maths above pin-head algebra. :) Based on what you just typed, transversal is easier to understand.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-11-28 14:41:11 UTC
lol im studying film and tv production :P
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#14 - 2011-11-28 14:46:29 UTC
while it's a little aside from the original topic, to avoid newbies becoming confused, signature radius does have other effects.

It is compared to the explosion radius of missiles. if it's smaller, you take less damage.

Also effects how easy you are to scan down. And how long it takes to lock onto you.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2011-11-28 15:04:56 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
lol im studying film and tv production :P

fail
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-11-28 15:05:27 UTC
Jenn Makanen wrote:
while it's a little aside from the original topic, to avoid newbies becoming confused, signature radius does have other effects.

It is compared to the explosion radius of missiles. if it's smaller, you take less damage.

Also effects how easy you are to scan down. And how long it takes to lock onto you.


This is true, ill edit the original post to reflect that this thread is about guns.
Froz3nEcho Sarain
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2011-11-28 18:02:02 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
lol im studying film and tv production :P

fail


The douchebag is strong in this one!

OT: I always thought tracking was working this way but it is nice to see some theory behind it ^^.

[i]~ When everything fades away, an echo is the only sound that will remain ~   ~ Chaos is a name for any order that produces confusion in our minds ~[/i]
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#18 - 2011-11-29 01:58:10 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
I dont see why people in eve are so obsessed with transversal, if you have angular for comparing tracking and velocity for knowing how fast they actually move you are set for knowing enough about your opponent.


Because some of us were literature/law majors who also took logic classes to opt out of all of the maths above pin-head algebra. :) Based on what you just typed, transversal is easier to understand.


Transversal may seem easier to understand, but it's not an accurate way to determine how well your guns are going to hit.

Transversal Velocity describes how-much sideways movement a target has in-relation to you. The problem with transversal is that it doesn't account for range. A target with 500m/s transversal at 1000m is way harder for your guns to track than a target with 500m/s transversal at 70000m.

The one you want to pay attention to is ANGULAR VELOCITY. This tells you how many rad/sec your target is moving in relation to you. This is the same stat your guns use to determine how well they track. If you "show info" on your guns it will tell you how many rad/second they are able to track. If your target's angular is higher than your gun's you will miss more often.