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Does Eve need new players?

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Victoria Thorne
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#481 - 2014-02-26 20:49:21 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:


But talking with some friends it seemed their frustration is that they don't have the resources for losing a lot of ships, and when they try to combat a small griefer corp with much better fittings available and several war decs concurrently running on similar small corps, losses start a snowball effect of other similar griefer corps war deccing them, resulting in ever growing numbers of hostile ships so that they can no longer muster the ship replacements or people to counter the first war and the additional ones, and they don't have the experienced players to know how to handle things or use different tactics, or whatever. So eventually they just end up having to button up and wait out the time. And some end up figuring it's not worth the monthly charge for something they liked to play a few hours per week.



From my experience, the simplest way to deal with this sort of situation is to head into either low-sec, or wormhole space. Both are dangerous places to be, but they are far more profitable than high-sec. It's unlikely that a high-sec war dec corp would follow a corp that moved into low-sec (unless the war had some sort of actual reason behind it), and as to them following you into wormhole space.... Big smile There are plenty of quiet areas in both, and the residents, while they might kill you joyfully, also might be willing to teach you a thing or two.
MHayes
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#482 - 2014-02-26 20:54:21 UTC
Give new players more SP.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#483 - 2014-02-26 21:05:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
MHayes wrote:
Give new players more SP.


New players can have as many SP as they want! By training skills in real time!! Yay training skills!!!

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#484 - 2014-02-26 21:09:05 UTC
MHayes wrote:
Give new players more SP.
How will that help them? They won't suddenly gain an understanding of game mechanics and the paths open to them just because they got more SP. A newbie with eleventybillion SP would still be a newbie with little or no understanding of the game they're playing.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#485 - 2014-02-26 21:11:01 UTC
How developed would our human civilizations be, if our ancestors weren't working to create a better, faster, easier world for their children?

I understand it was "hard" for you back in "the day".

Your pride in going through something that was hard, is allowable. It was well earned. Congratulations, good job. You deserve respect. Thanks for playing this game so long that 10 years later, it gives me the chance to do so as well.

I understand it was hard for you. But back to my first sentence.

Do not let your own pride in your accomplishments serve as a barrier to potential enjoyment of new people.
In eve, noobs are essentially the children.

We're space children. Why do you wish to make things not easier for your children? Our civilizations and societies have flourished with parents working and invented and changing life as it was, to make it better for those they wished to proceed them.

Abandon your pride. Pride is a sin. Think about the space children.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#486 - 2014-02-26 21:11:26 UTC
MHayes wrote:
Give new players more SP.

It's been tried. It just gave old players more advantages.
Oliver Wendel Jones
Citizens of Fernando Po
#487 - 2014-02-26 21:14:42 UTC
I agree that giving more SP (or money) is not the answer. Part of the time learning skills is that you practice what you've learned during the time you are learning new stuff.

My thoughts would be something along the lines of to raise the cost of war decs, increasing the cost exponentially for pile on war decs. Someone earlier said something about limiting the number of war decs a corp could have. Not ending war decs, just turning them into less of a griefer tactic.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#488 - 2014-02-26 21:23:41 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
I agree that giving more SP (or money) is not the answer. Part of the time learning skills is that you practice what you've learned during the time you are learning new stuff.

My thoughts would be something along the lines of to raise the cost of war decs, increasing the cost exponentially for pile on war decs. Someone earlier said something about limiting the number of war decs a corp could have. Not ending war decs, just turning them into less of a griefer tactic.


All that will do is make people pile into big alliances to do it, that way they can absorb the cost more easily. It would only hurt the smaller entities.

That, and war decs need to be made more powerful, not less. Right now it is trivially easy to get away from them by dissolving your corp.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#489 - 2014-02-26 21:35:02 UTC
Confirming no one plays EVE anyone. I mean, I was transporting goods through Rancer yesterday, and there was not a single gate camp or other person in local. You can pretty much use it as a shortcut between trade hubs now, autopiloting even.
Don't believe me? Give it a try.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#490 - 2014-02-26 22:57:05 UTC
If SP doesn't matter, why can't I fly an Ishtar?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#491 - 2014-02-26 23:00:27 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
If SP doesn't matter, why can't I fly an Ishtar?

Because you wisely chose not to.
Also, what's with that corp history?! It rather looks like someone who can fly an Ishtar if he selects the right things in the launcher. P
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#492 - 2014-02-26 23:33:47 UTC
NFain wrote:
A valid point arises, what is simply missing is rewards for being the good guy. EVE works as risk vs reward, and what we're failing to attract is the good guy player persona. The bad guy is always glorified, through the news and etc, whats the next big heist? But nobody ever sees the good deeds, most players DO NOT like to play in that kind of environment, they want to know that what they're doing is going to be rewarded as significantly as the other.

Also to add, war dec shields coming winter 2014 :D, im calling it.


While it might be hard to do good and easy to do evil, actually being regarded as accomplished at villainy is a position almost no criminal reaches. The same goes for law enforcement. The quiet achievers are normally the best achievers.

In having said that being able to annull a war dec through a fee has long been discussed but clearly wouldn't work. The defenders that could afford to pay off concord are probably the same people who just sit in station doing manufacturing or market pvp while the people least able to afford to buy off concord are the ones who legitimately need to perform work to get their money.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#493 - 2014-02-26 23:52:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
If SP doesn't matter, why can't I fly an Ishtar?

Because you wisely chose not to.
Also, what's with that corp history?! It rather looks like someone who can fly an Ishtar if he selects the right things in the launcher. P


I can fly an Ishtar if I start training for it today, and wait 47 days. I just think it is inaccurate to keep repeating the notion that sp doesn't matter.

And since almost 1/3 of my 3.5m SP are in drones, the Ishtar is looking pretty appealing.

Look, I get that you all had to wait for **** too and eve was even tougher for news back in the day, but for people to repeatedly claim sp doesn't matter is dishonest.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#494 - 2014-02-27 00:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
If SP doesn't matter, why can't I fly an Ishtar?

Because you wisely chose not to.
Also, what's with that corp history?! It rather looks like someone who can fly an Ishtar if he selects the right things in the launcher. P


I can fly an Ishtar if I start training for it today, and wait 47 days. I just think it is inaccurate to keep repeating the notion that sp doesn't matter.

And since almost 1/3 of my 3.5m SP are in drones, the Ishtar is looking pretty appealing.

Look, I get that you all had to wait for **** too and eve was even tougher for news back in the day, but for people to repeatedly claim sp doesn't matter is dishonest.


It matters for flying an Ishtar.

It matters not for flying an Ishtar well.

That's why you fly a Vexor before you fly an Ishtar.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#495 - 2014-02-27 00:06:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Look, I get that you all had to wait for **** too and eve was even tougher for news back in the day, but for people to repeatedly claim sp doesn't matter is dishonest.

Meh. You just have to parse it right. It's not “SP means nooooothing” — it's more that SP is not the be-all end-all stat that people expect it to be based on how, say, XP works in most other MMOs. It is not a measurement of power or ability or anything that can be easily compared, other than purely an indicator of time subscribed. It's more a shorthand for “SP is not in any way like XP and anything that tries to make an argument that treats them as if they were the same is inherently flawed”.

SP only matters to the extent it is spent on useful skills to appropriate levels. The tricky part is that “useful skills” and “appropriate levels” are very fuzzy and variable concepts. It can quite literally change from one second to the next. You don't need a lot of SP to fill up a very useful skill set, and yet you can spend an awful lot of SP one a pretty much completely useless set of them as well. You also don't need all that many SP (on the scale of things) to completely max out a single ship with all its fittings, but at the same time, doing so is terribly wasteful.

At no point is there a simple 1:1 relationship where more SP is automatically better. There certainly are very specific instances where more SP will do more things, but in almost all those instances, you can beat that SP by simply flying better or outnumber them. 5×2M SP will make mince-meat out of 1×20M SP (cf. every miner/industrialist gank thread ever).
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#496 - 2014-02-27 00:55:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Look, I get that you all had to wait for **** too and eve was even tougher for news back in the day, but for people to repeatedly claim sp doesn't matter is dishonest.

Meh. You just have to parse it right. It's not “SP means nooooothing” — it's more that SP is not the be-all end-all stat that people expect it to be based on how, say, XP works in most other MMOs. It is not a measurement of power or ability or anything that can be easily compared, other than purely an indicator of time subscribed. It's more a shorthand for “SP is not in any way like XP and anything that tries to make an argument that treats them as if they were the same is inherently flawed”.

SP only matters to the extent it is spent on useful skills to appropriate levels. The tricky part is that “useful skills” and “appropriate levels” are very fuzzy and variable concepts. It can quite literally change from one second to the next. You don't need a lot of SP to fill up a very useful skill set, and yet you can spend an awful lot of SP one a pretty much completely useless set of them as well. You also don't need all that many SP (on the scale of things) to completely max out a single ship with all its fittings, but at the same time, doing so is terribly wasteful.

At no point is there a simple 1:1 relationship where more SP is automatically better. There certainly are very specific instances where more SP will do more things, but in almost all those instances, you can beat that SP by simply flying better or outnumber them. 5×2M SP will make mince-meat out of 1×20M SP (cf. every miner/industrialist gank thread ever).


I think a lot of people around here are really oversimplifying my argument down to the proposition that 30m sp > 3m sp no matter what. This is kindof a straw man because it assumes I'm stupid enough to think that 30m sp in industry is going to give someone an advantage in a frigate 1v1. I do not think this. I think that someone who has 5m sp in frigate related skills (gunnery or missiles, navigation, racial frigate, weapon type, armor or shield etc.) is going to have an advantage over someone with 1m s p in the same skills. There are other factors that play a role, though I'd argue that most people you find in lowsec are pretty good at not letting themselves get blobbed. But ship/fit related sp affects how well that ship/fit performs, and I don't see how anyone can deny this, which blanket statements of "sp doesn't matter" seem to do. This attitude gives rise to people telling newbies that they died not because their opponent's ship was better at everything, but simply because said newbie is bad at the game. I.e., if only I'd flown my ship differently, my t1 fit algos with 1.5m sp in relevant skills would have killed his t2 algos with 5m relevant sp no problem, which seems to me only holds true if "he" is a moron.

Organic player skill and decisionmaking is not the only factor in a fight, sp is also relevant. And it's unfortunate to see people refuse to acknowledge this, it makes me think they're a bit too invested in trying to justify their arrogance. To be clear, I'm not denying that most of the players who have been playing longer than me are better than me, I just don't believe they can claim this is the only factor in the outcome of a fight.

I don't think I can parse this any more clearly without exceeding TLDR limits.
Mourn LeBlade
Jupiter Roughriders
#497 - 2014-02-27 01:05:47 UTC
I think because of the single-shard nature of Eve, there are already performance/lag challenges with the existing player base.

Therefore Eve is in a "Sellers Market", and there isn't a great need to increase the volume of players until the technology to support so many players is further advanced. So there is not a huge deal of churn to be dealt with and not much possibility for adding large numbers of players.

This is also my theory on why the little guy never can get anything reimbursed due to bugs. Why would CCP care when they are capped by technological limits? Losing a few loyal players here and there is easily back-filled by a trickle of new players.

Just my opinion. Permission granted for the Intelligentsia to flame me.

LTCOL LeBlade 177 Division Live Free or Die
Hanz Riemannder
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#498 - 2014-02-27 10:47:14 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
..., but as a new player we have to wait until time permits us to access it.


Rubbish. Complete and utter crap in a box.

But I agree on one thing. Yes it does look like that in the beginning. Everything in New Eden screams murder and probable death TO you as the new guy on the block. How you choose to deal with this impression however, says everything about you as a player / gamer / person.

If you want to sound like Calimero, then go right ahead.

Link
"In the Netherlands and Belgium, the term "Calimero complex" is used to denote someone who thinks the world is against them because they are an underdog; often the character's lines from the show are cited, "They are big and I is [sic] small and that is not fair, oh no!" (translated back from the Dutch, with intentional error)."

Yes you have to wait for your SP to catch up. Why wouldn't you have to wait? The dude that is kicking your a** had to wait for them as well x number of years ago. Why would new people be given more / better SP when they start? Are we better than the veteran players? Did we do anything special to deserve extra SP to compete?

If you weren't in a huge FW corp and if I had the ISK for solo-wardeccing people, I'd wardec your Calimero attitude into the ground. Just to show you what we poor new players can do.

If your mouse pointer is now hoovering over the post button, stop and read the above bold text again! And again. And again. Stop victimizing every new player. It's pathetic.

Tales of a newb pirate in New Eden
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#499 - 2014-02-27 10:49:41 UTC
Hanz Riemannder wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
..., but as a new player we have to wait until time permits us to access it.


Rubbish. Complete and utter crap in a box.

But I agree on one thing. Yes it does look like that in the beginning. Everything in New Eden screams murder and probable death TO you as the new guy on the block. How you choose to deal with this impression however, says everything about you as a player / gamer / person.

If you want to sound like Calimero, then go right ahead.

Link
"In the Netherlands and Belgium, the term "Calimero complex" is used to denote someone who thinks the world is against them because they are an underdog; often the character's lines from the show are cited, "They are big and I is [sic] small and that is not fair, oh no!" (translated back from the Dutch, with intentional error)."

Yes you have to wait for your SP to catch up. Why wouldn't you have to wait? The dude that is kicking your a** had to wait for them as well x number of years ago. Why would new people be given more / better SP when they start? Are we better than the veteran players? Did we do anything special to deserve extra SP to compete?

If you weren't in a huge FW corp and if I had the ISK for solo-wardeccing people, I'd wardec your Calimero attitude into the ground. Just to show you what we poor new players can do.

If your mouse pointer is now hoovering over the post button, stop and read the above bold text again! And again. And again. Stop victimizing every new player. It's pathetic.


This is an Eve player. +1 fellow capsuleer!

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#500 - 2014-02-27 10:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Hanz Riemannder wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
..., but as a new player we have to wait until time permits us to access it.


Rubbish. Complete and utter crap in a box.

But I agree on one thing. Yes it does look like that in the beginning. Everything in New Eden screams murder and probable death TO you as the new guy on the block. How you choose to deal with this impression however, says everything about you as a player / gamer / person.

If you want to sound like Calimero, then go right ahead.

Link
"In the Netherlands and Belgium, the term "Calimero complex" is used to denote someone who thinks the world is against them because they are an underdog; often the character's lines from the show are cited, "They are big and I is [sic] small and that is not fair, oh no!" (translated back from the Dutch, with intentional error)."

Yes you have to wait for your SP to catch up. Why wouldn't you have to wait? The dude that is kicking your a** had to wait for them as well x number of years ago. Why would new people be given more / better SP when they start? Are we better than the veteran players? Did we do anything special to deserve extra SP to compete?

If you weren't in a huge FW corp and if I had the ISK for solo-wardeccing people, I'd wardec your Calimero attitude into the ground. Just to show you what we poor new players can do.

If your mouse pointer is now hoovering over the post button, stop and read the above bold text again! And again. And again. Stop victimizing every new player. It's pathetic.


NVM, I don't feel like wasting my time with another person who demonstrates all he wants to do is insult me.