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The Two and a Half Minutes Hate: Birth of a Ritual
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Karmilla Strife
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#81 - 2014-02-26 14:48:49 UTC
Brock Yevikaan wrote:
Why people continue to pay attention to your maundering blather is beyond me.


The Stonites taught him that if you're loud enough, someone will have to pay attention.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#82 - 2014-02-26 14:51:53 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:

I think youll find it very difficult to prove that those under your charge have actually been touched by Faith. The Scriptures put empahsis on ones ability to recognize the Faith when it presents itself, and that requires some degree of free will. If failure to recognize the Faith should bring the wrath of God, then woe to soul who is reaponsible for ones inability to recognize it.


This is the role of conditioning such as the Two and a Half Minutes Hate ritual. When the Test of Faith comes to my slaves, there is no doubt that they will choose the side of Amarr over the side of Jove, literally and figuratively.
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#83 - 2014-02-26 15:19:11 UTC
Not knowing what was to come, I might have initially described your effort as a bit over the top.

Seeing that you managed to provoke that moron Rella into the tasteless halfwit gesture of opening an entirely new discussion on the discussion simultaneously being discussed, here - extending the reach of your message - I must say you seem to be on the right track. I would recommend you revert any changes made to your program. It seems you were acting according to the will of Heaven from the get go after all.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#84 - 2014-02-26 16:18:14 UTC
Noh you are a coward and as without honor as you are without intellect. I dare you to stop hiding behind the GalNet and undock.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#85 - 2014-02-26 16:24:13 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Noh you are a coward and as without honor as you are without intellect. I dare you to stop hiding behind the GalNet and undock.


Is that a direct response, Little Moron Annie? Tell us, what does your wee mind believe the word "intellect" means?
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2014-02-26 16:41:46 UTC
Apollo Lyserius wrote:
You point other states' unlawful conducts. And their motives for not proceeding with such unlawful conducts. And it is exactly because those conducts are unlawful, unjust and undue that we should abstain from doing the same. i.e., the fact that their behaviour is wrongful not only does not give us the right to act wrongfully as it also is the reason why we won't do so. But I do understand your motives, Miss, and I won't condemn you in any way for fighting for freedom. Just try not to impose anything.

While they believe in divine right, we believe in our constitution. While theirs is the rule of God and the Empress, ours is the Rule of Law. We should and will act differently concerning the same matters.


Delicate matter my foot! Mr. Lyserius, your words of taking a back seat while the Amarr go forth and conquer and enslave others are naive! From their own scriptures!

"I give to you the destiny of Faith,
And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:
Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 22:13

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

These are NOT a people that give a flying TOOT about your rights Mr. Lyserius, they are conquers and en-slavers! We MUST defend ourselves against them! It's good to be accepting of others and their rights yes, but when they want to trample all over you and your acceptance? You must put your foot down and tell them NO. I had family taken by these people, and I rescued them. But to this day they have to receive medical treatment for Vitoc. I've seen first hand how they treat others and impose on us.
Apollo Lyserius
Minerva Technologies
#87 - 2014-02-26 16:58:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Apollo Lyserius
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:


Delicate matter my foot! Mr. Lyserius, your words of taking a back seat while the Amarr go forth and conquer and enslave others are naive! From their own scriptures!

"I give to you the destiny of Faith,
And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:
Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 22:13

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

These are NOT a people that give a flying TOOT about your rights Mr. Lyserius, they are conquers and en-slavers! We MUST defend ourselves against them! It's good to be accepting of others and their rights yes, but when they want to trample all over you and your acceptance? You must put your foot down and tell them NO. I had family taken by these people, and I rescued them. But to this day they have to receive medical treatment for Vitoc. I've seen first hand how they treat others and impose on us.


I don't get your point. Or you didn't get mine. I'm not saying we shouldn't defend ourselves, neither am I condemning those who go in there and help slaves fight for their freedom on individual-level. Never said that. And again, is it because they don't give a toot about others' rights, that we shouldn't, as well?

I'm just saying we shouldn't go around telling people of different cultures how they should act, and that the Federation shouldn't undertake any offensive measures to "universalize" our human rights. The delicate part of it is separating individual level support from state level support.

Tell me something, Miss Sythaeryn, do you eat meat or any animal-derived substance?
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2014-02-26 17:28:10 UTC
Apollo Lyserius wrote:
I don't get your point. Or you didn't get mine. I'm not saying we shouldn't defend ourselves, neither am I condemning those who go in there and help slaves fight for their freedom on individual-level. Never said that. And again, is it because they don't give a toot about others' rights, that we shouldn't, as well?

I'm just saying we shouldn't go around telling people of different cultures how they should act, and that the Federation shouldn't undertake any offensive measures to "universalize" our human rights. The delicate part of it is separating individual level support from state level support.

Tell me something, Miss Sythaeryn, do you eat meat or any animal-derived substance?


I agree with you that the Federation itself shouldn't be on the offensive in this matter. I'm a dove for a reason. But I also understand that the Amarr Empire will come after us again in the future, and we must be viligant and ready to defend our people when that time comes. The Federation should also actively attempt rescues of our own citizens. That will necessitate going into Amarr territory. So be it, they are our own citizens, we should proactively attempt to get them back. Period. If the Amarr declare war over this? Then we must be ready to fight them.

And I eat meat.
Apollo Lyserius
Minerva Technologies
#89 - 2014-02-26 17:49:27 UTC
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:

I agree with you that the Federation itself shouldn't be on the offensive in this matter. I'm a dove for a reason. But I also understand that the Amarr Empire will come after us again in the future, and we must be viligant and ready to defend our people when that time comes. The Federation should also actively attempt rescues of our own citizens. That will necessitate going into Amarr territory. So be it, they are our own citizens, we should proactively attempt to get them back. Period. If the Amarr declare war over this? Then we must be ready to fight them.

And I eat meat.


Then, with that specific wording - our own citizens - I agree with you wholly.

Now, the subject about meat was the following: Picture how it would be if the Jove turned out to be hardcore vegans and started to tell you to stop eating meat or using animals because they are our equals and must be freed - that their list of universal rights is not only human, but animal as well. How would you feel? We treat our animals worse than some Amarr treat their slaves, and yet the moral distinction between humans and animals is merely... moral. But we have our motives for eating meat.

That's how I try to think. But your last post is something I agree 100% with, so, nevermind. Just didn't want to lose the analogy.
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2014-02-26 18:01:42 UTC
Apollo Lyserius wrote:
How would you feel? We treat our animals worse than some Amarr treat their slaves, and yet the moral distinction between humans and animals is merely... moral. But we have our motives for eating meat.

That's how I try to think. But your last post is something I agree 100% with, so, nevermind. Just didn't want to lose the analogy.


How would I feel? Angry... because if the Jove were to do that, then it would be like the Amarr telling us what to do as well. Different reasons, same mentality.

For whatever it's worth, I've also advocated more humane treatment of animals in the past. But we can only have so many battles before being spread thin...
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#91 - 2014-02-26 19:23:40 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Pilot Stitcher is correct: the Jove have been active in the recent past, and so they remain a threat and a legitimate target for hatred and aggression.

Like him, however, I am puzzled by the rather sudden silence.


Hey, don't put words in my mouth.

1: the Amarr attacked the Jove, not the other way round, and this was a long time ago. Even if they ARE harbouring a grudge, the absolute worst retaliation they've thrown your way so far has been less than a lurking cloaker in your home system. They're either playing a game so long, intricate and patient that you won't ever see it coming when they do strike, and certainly won't be able to stop it... or else they're not actually an active threat to the Empire.

2: I'm not "puzzled" by a "sudden silence" on their part at all - this isn't even yet the longest interval of no-contact our civilizations have had with the Jove. How long has it been since we last heard from them? Eight, nine years? Given that the preceding centuries included a couple of consecutive decades of silence between occasions when they deigned to acknowledge us lesser beings, I'm neither surprised nor puzzled by their current behaviour.

They've historically been opaque, silent and distant: to my knowledge they have appeared at a grand total of one meeting of the CONCORD bureau.

No, what puzzles me is that so many pilots seem to be not only convinced of, but authorities on the Jovians' supposed extinction. Which to me seems somewhat premature. If you had a distant cousin who for years you'd only ever spoken to on birthdays and the new year, it'd be a bit premature to break out the mourning clothes and tell people how they were tragically cut short in their prime just because you've not heard from them this month.

I'm not claiming to know for a fact that they aren't extinct, it's just that people seem to have pulled this extinction conclusion out of their gluteal cleft and are now bandying it around as if it were common knowledge and established fact. That's what puzzles me.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#92 - 2014-02-26 19:48:17 UTC
Interesting how there's not one mention of the words slavery or enslavement in the Scriptures yet everyone blames the religion, and not the interpretation offered by clergy....

Silly me to think people actually bother to read.

-Eran
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2014-02-26 20:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Pontianak Sythaeryn
Eran Mintor wrote:
Interesting how there's not one mention of the words slavery or enslavement in the Scriptures yet everyone blames the religion, and not the interpretation offered by clergy....

Silly me to think people actually bother to read.

-Eran


I understand your point... but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. When your own people use your own religion to justify slavery, whether it's in the scriptures or not, then people will grow to hate the religion, the slavery, AND the Amarr as a people. It doesn't help that in the scriptures it does say to go forth and conquer others, and that the Amarr are "his Chosen" etc etc. Combined with the horrors of Vitoc, beatings, and other methods of controlling the slaves...

The end result, and the way people feel about the Amarr is obvious and a forgone conclusion. Actions speak louder than words on a book, and the actions of the slavers is very very loud. The scriptures? Silent until read.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#94 - 2014-02-26 20:09:27 UTC
It also does not say conquer "others" and is quite vague to what it means when it states "Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." The common assumption is that it means people, but it could be interpreted in a myriad of different ways.

Hate the religion all you want, I really care not. At least understand that which you hate, that's all I ask. The people don't deserve to be hated in my humble opinion. I cannot blame a child for being born into a society, nor can I blame a child for being born into poverty or born handicapped.

-Eran
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2014-02-26 20:28:20 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
It also does not say conquer "others" and is quite vague to what it means when it states "Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." The common assumption is that it means people, but it could be interpreted in a myriad of different ways.

Hate the religion all you want, I really care not. At least understand that which you hate, that's all I ask. The people don't deserve to be hated in my humble opinion. I cannot blame a child for being born into a society, nor can I blame a child for being born into poverty or born handicapped.

-Eran



You are absolutely right Eran, it could mean a number of different things. Like Plants, or Rocks. Clearly this other pages don't shed light on this subject.

"So the Lord sent forth the Chosen,
to bring forth the light of faith
And those who embrace his love
Shall be saved by his grace
For we are his shepherds in the darkness
His Angels of Mercy.
But those who turn away from his light,
And reject his true word
Shall be struck down by his wrath
For we are his retribution incarnate
His Angels of Vengeance"
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 4:45

So who are the chosen? Who would turn away?

"Our Lord visited his flock and saw that all was not good.
Blasphemy and heresy ruled the land.
The Lord punished the sinners and drowned them in their own blood.
But the people of Amarr lived righteously and in fear of God.
Thus they were saved and became God's chosen."
- The Scriptures, Book II 2:1

Ah I see! The Amarr are the Chosen! That makes "those who turn away from his light" to be.... Trees! Not people, Trees! Conquer the trees Amarr, the trees!

And you misunderstand me dear sir. I don't hate the religion. I don't believe in it, but I don't hate it. I hate slavery and I fully admit that. Hating children? Please, lets not turn this into something it isn't.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#96 - 2014-02-26 21:17:34 UTC
I never said you hated children. It was an example to illustrate a point, one I think you purposefully ignored.

You cannot choose the circumstances you're born into. You don't get to decide if you're short or handsome or smart or poor. You don't decide if you're born into a royal family or born a slave. Opportunities may arise in the future where you have choices to change some of the circumstances you live in, but not all get these chances. Those who do must understand the consequences that come with it. Going against a society that bred and raised you will come with great hardships for yourself, but more importantly for your family. Not every choice that is seen as right or just by outsiders is so black and white, and sometimes these choices are not in the best interest of your family and survival. The Nefantar are a great example of this.

Perhaps you should know I speak on these matters from personal experience.

In regards to your comments on the Scriptures, I would like to believe you're more imaginative than that. The Scriptures could very well be refering to the spiritual essence that God gave Man when it says, "reclaim that which I have given." If this is one way to interpert the Scriptures, one could go on to say that the tools of this conquest and reclaiming aren't shackles or swords, but preachers and teachers. Slavery, again, is not explicity condoned in the Scriptures. To reclaim spiritual essence of Man, one would require education on matters of life. Simply being a slave, contrary to what the village idiot Nauplius believes, does not provide any such education of the spirit. A better understanding of the religion and underlying values will help you fight slavery, trust me on that.

-Eran
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2014-02-26 22:04:08 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
In regards to your comments on the Scriptures, I would like to believe you're more imaginative than that. The Scriptures could very well be refering to the spiritual essence that God gave Man when it says, "reclaim that which I have given." If this is one way to interpert the Scriptures, one could go on to say that the tools of this conquest and reclaiming aren't shackles or swords, but preachers and teachers. Slavery, again, is not explicity condoned in the Scriptures. To reclaim spiritual essence of Man, one would require education on matters of life. Simply being a slave, contrary to what the village idiot Nauplius believes, does not provide any such education of the spirit. A better understanding of the religion and underlying values will help you fight slavery, trust me on that.

-Eran


I actually do get what you are saying Sir Mintor. Over the past few days, I've gotten the feeling that yourself, and Lord Draconis are a bit... different in some of views on this, and they are steps I can "cautiously" agree with. But it doesn't change the fact that many many Amarr don't feel the way you both do, and that even the clergy seem to differ vastly in their opinions on this. When such things such as that are the way they are, it's going to shape outsiders opinions of in a negative light. To deny this is just closing your eyes to what is happening around you.

People are scared, not directly of Amarrian religion, but of being taken and forced into servitude over something they don't even believe in. They are afraid of being pumped full of a disease, brain washed, beaten within an inch of their lives, etc etc. And if you somehow find yourself around a person such as Nauplius or others like him (and their are plenty in the Empire like him) then those fears are very very real. Telling others that they need to read the scripture doesn't change that fact.

*sighs* This actually reminds me of my own Gallente. Because of the whole Caldari situation, people look at us in a negative light as well. I can't blame them, the Federation hasn't been perfect by any means. Of course, no empire is innocent either. Power itself is a corrupting influence it seems on humanity.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#98 - 2014-02-26 22:38:57 UTC
I do not deny the Amarr have earned their harsh reputation. Far from it. You kill someone and you'll be labeled a killer and, even if the killers family had no part in it, I would certainly be cautious around the family should they continue supporting the killer. This is a natural paranoia and we can witness that among all four empires as they scorn each other and try to keep a "safe distance".

Certainly the viewpoints I hold on the Amarr faith are far from the commonly accepted interpretation. I wish to note at this point I do not follow the Amarr faith but am merely a scholar with interest in the many faiths of New Eden. With this said, my distance from their faith is what allows my different interpretations. The Theology Council is the leading authority on all religious matters, including interpretation, in the Empire. The process of changing the accepted interpretations is not an easy nor quick undertaking. This is why I believe patience is required in order for change to be enabled.

Like the Amarrian belief that spiritual enlightenment comes through generations of service and dedication, so too does change in the Empire require time. If you plant the seeds however, then they will grow. A tree properly nurtured will dwarf the older diseased trees around it. This analogy illustrates why I think it's important to support Holders such as Lord Draconis, as his success will pave the way for a growing trend. He is not the first of this trend either.

Simply demanding change does not bring it about. Understanding the belief system will help open up solutions to bring about change, and this is why it's important for those against slavery to read the Scriptures. As I stated earlier, the Scriptures do not command slavery, and the more who understand that in the Empire, the more roots you spread. A tall tree needs strong roots or it will topple from the lightest gust.

Thank you for the civil discussion thus far.

-Eran
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#99 - 2014-02-26 22:46:45 UTC
Bravo Eran. Well said on all points.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2014-02-26 23:04:31 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
so too does change in the Empire require time. If you plant the seeds however, then they will grow. A tree properly nurtured will dwarf the older diseased trees around it. This analogy illustrates why I think it's important to support Holders such as Lord Draconis, as his success will pave the way for a growing trend. He is not the first of this trend either.

Simply demanding change does not bring it about. Understanding the belief system will help open up solutions to bring about change, and this is why it's important for those against slavery to read the Scriptures. As I stated earlier, the Scriptures do not command slavery, and the more who understand that in the Empire, the more roots you spread. A tall tree needs strong roots or it will topple from the lightest gust.

Thank you for the civil discussion thus far.

-Eran


My concern is only this, as somebody that also knows about these seeds and trees.

A new tree is most vulnerable to those bigger and more established trees around it. Also it is more vulnerable to the animals that would eat it. What you are talking about, is changing the way the Amarr view their entire theology, this is not an easy task by any means and if those such as Lord Draconis are truly as you say... then they are also the most vulnerable to those that would see this effort squashed to keep things as they are. What is being done to keep the new tree from being infected by it's neighbors?