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FW farming.... It's getting REALLY lame.

Author
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#101 - 2014-02-26 17:49:43 UTC
Professor Kent wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
how will stopping cloaks and stabs stop farming the farmers will sit as far away from the warp in but still inside button range as they can and watch dscan like they do now anyone comes on shortrange they warp to a pre made safe and stay there till u get bored and fk off ... please think about these so called fixes before u spout them

Exactly. There's always a way for an alert player (or well programmed bot) to evade action.


Good, but how would you change it? Most of you only criticize how all FW is bad, why you can't say anything how to fix this?


You misunderstand me. I don't think that cloaks or stabs or evasion by farmers from plexes is broken or bad, really. I consider it working as intended.

I consider the huge disparity in effort and reward the broken issue.

For example, farmer warps into a novice plex, deploys drones, rat dies. Timer starts ticking down - working as intended. IF 10 minutes pass, he gets 5000LP modified by tier.

Courageous Solo PvP God (aka chatgris) warps to the plex to do violence to the greedy useless farmer. The farmer, correctly living in mortal terror of such a paragon of spaceship violence, aligns out and buggers off. Again, working as intended. Perhaps he's slightly sneakier, and just cloaks up when he sees this wrathful goddess appear on d-scan. Again, working as intended. Possibly, he sticks around until the last moment, hoping that his 11 WCS will allow him to escape his due punishment for violating the tenets of FW wherein you must fight to the last HP of structure for every single plex. Again, working as intended.

So, after this dastardly coward successfully avoids the wrath of chatgris, chatgris now has a choice. She could sit in this plex and orbit a button, for 10 minutes plus however long the dastardly coward was able to squat in the plex before her baleful eye turned upon him. In exchange for giving up her valuable time - during which should could roam the spaceways and inflict untold gazillions of isk worth of spaceship violence upon the unworthy and unbelieving - she will be rewarded in tasty, tasty Federal Defense Union Loyalty Points. All 38 of them.

And no, that's not actually not a typo. Since Nisuwa is generally at 1% or less contested, she'll literally receive 37 LP for spending up to 19 minutes and 59 seconds in that novice plex. At the cost of thousands of precious killmails and Battleclinic points.

THAT is the broken mechanic, IMO. The fact that the stabbed, cloaky farmer gets 15,000% of the reward for half the work is the imbalance. THAT is what needs to be fixed.

There's several ways to change this. IMO, the two that need to be addressed are time spent and relative reward.

Many folks advocate timer rollbacks as an answer for the time issue. The problem is that this gives an unfair advantage to the defender. My proposal has consistently been to use a dual timer mechanic - both sides have to spend 10 minutes in capture range of the plex, no more and no less. This not only means that neither side has an undue burden - it also should provoke more fights in contested systems, because you'd be forced to contest each plex more heavily and more often to prevent it getting capped.

As far as rewards go, that disparity also needs to be addressed. Now, deplexing always has to be rewarded less than oplexing for two reasons. First, there has to be enough reward to entice folks into "enemy territory." Second, if you're deplexing, you don't even need to kill the NPC. In fact, you benefit from it's protection to some degree (meager though it may be).

The issue at the moment is that not only is deplexing penalized by 25% across the board in LP terms, it's also scaled by contested percentage. This means that you get rewarded LESS for putting in the work to keep a system stable. That's backwards IMO.

I believe the effort of deplexing should be rewarded at about 50%-75% of oplexing rewards, whatever those may be. An alternative would be to scale deplex rewards with the system upgrade level. Say 10-15% base, multiplied by the system upgrade level. This would actually reward people for putting in the effort to upgrade systems and defend those systems.

Just my opinion though.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Degnar Oskold
Moira.
Villore Accords
#102 - 2014-02-26 17:58:36 UTC
I could singlehandedly stop fw farmers in the Caldari-Gallente zone if complex acceleration gates were changed to allow for activation at 2500 meters instead of 2000 meters again.

It's the only things stopping Asteros from sneaking into farmers in plexes without getting decloaked.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#103 - 2014-02-26 17:59:30 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
how will stopping cloaks and stabs stop farming the farmers will sit as far away from the warp in but still inside button range as they can and watch dscan like they do now anyone comes on shortrange they warp to a pre made safe and stay there till u get bored and fk off ... please think about these so called fixes before u spout them

Exactly. There's always a way for an alert player (or well programmed bot) to evade action.

CCP has given us the Astero. It's up to us to use it.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#104 - 2014-02-26 18:00:24 UTC
Degnar Oskold wrote:
I could singlehandedly stop fw farmers in the Caldari-Gallente zone if complex acceleration gates were changed to allow for activation at 2500 meters instead of 2000 meters again.

It's the only things stopping Asteros from sneaking into farmers in plexes without getting decloaked.


Simple things like this would make a huge difference, yes.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Degnar Oskold
Moira.
Villore Accords
#105 - 2014-02-26 18:08:54 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Degnar Oskold wrote:
I could singlehandedly stop fw farmers in the Caldari-Gallente zone if complex acceleration gates were changed to allow for activation at 2500 meters instead of 2000 meters again.

It's the only things stopping Asteros from sneaking into farmers in plexes without getting decloaked.


Simple things like this would make a huge difference, yes.


Now formally requested in the Features forum.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325297&find=unread
Stalence
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#106 - 2014-02-26 19:04:30 UTC
First, I didn't know FW plexing was a bot-capable activity but that doesn't surprise me.

The system is definitely broken when plexer alts, mission runners and bots can profit like crazy yet do nothing to add to the game.

Sure I suppose there should be some LP payout for plexing but the real LP payouts should come from kill mails. That way the guys actually fighting can earn enough LP/ISK to remain self-sufficient.

Member of #tweetfleet @stalence // Templis CALSF // YouTube Channel

ALUCARD 1208
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2014-02-26 19:05:31 UTC
Professor Kent wrote:


Good, but how would you change it? Most of you only criticize how all FW is bad, why you can't say anything how to fix this?



I dont claim to know how to fix it all im saying is just think first before u claim this will fix plex farming
ALUCARD 1208
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2014-02-26 19:08:06 UTC
Stalence wrote:
First, I didn't know FW plexing was a bot-capable activity but that doesn't surprise me.

The system is definitely broken when plexer alts, mission runners and bots can profit like crazy yet do nothing to add to the game.

Sure I suppose there should be some LP payout for plexing but the real LP payouts should come from kill mails. That way the guys actually fighting can earn enough LP/ISK to remain self-sufficient.



Yes and this happened before and clever goons found a way to eploit the ass off it so did a few others
Professor Kent
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2014-02-27 00:13:40 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Professor Kent wrote:


Good, but how would you change it? Most of you only criticize how all FW is bad, why you can't say anything how to fix this?



I dont claim to know how to fix it all im saying is just think first before u claim this will fix plex farming


It won't fix farming. You can't fix farming because farming exists in every MMO game out there. It will although change it in the way it should be ( IN MY OPINION )
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#110 - 2014-02-27 00:53:04 UTC
Professor Kent wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Professor Kent wrote:


Good, but how would you change it? Most of you only criticize how all FW is bad, why you can't say anything how to fix this?



I dont claim to know how to fix it all im saying is just think first before u claim this will fix plex farming


It won't fix farming. You can't fix farming because farming exists in every MMO game out there. It will although change it in the way it should be ( IN MY OPINION )

CCP should adopt policies that discourage bots while minimizing their impact on players that want to pvp.

You can give players the tools to help them mitigate the effects of farming in the areas where they (pvpers) choose to be active.
o Timer rollbacks have been suggested forever.
o CCP gave us a tool (the Astero) to help us out. Degnar's suggestion is great, btw.
o Maybe CCP has some other idea they could implement.

You can make it so that the bots have to put more skin in the game wrt ship fits - this helps players out when they are not online.
o more difficult to run plexes (tougher rats, not necessarily rats with higher dps, more rat spawns)
o "kill all the rats"
o Maybe CCP has some other idea they could think implement. Maybe tie tier level in a system to rat difficulty (??)

Not going to stop farming - will make the lives of players in FW more enjoyable. Bottom line is that CCP has done NOTHING to tackle this issue.

The players (like myself) who still enjoy FW have done so by tailoring their game to minimize the impact of these farmers - defend fewer systems, bribe the bots with higher tier levels when it suits their purposes, go to where the fights are, ignore unpopulated systems because they are boring as hell. We are rewarded with MASSIVE levels of pew that are unheard of in this game.

The "idealists" who have a hard time adjusting to "reality" get all upset and endlessly complain about the same issue over and over again. You'd think CCP would get the hint.





Saxxa Roth'Gar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2014-02-27 02:18:11 UTC
BUMP for my Faction Warfare Dudes!

Pew Terror
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2014-02-27 17:36:05 UTC
The main problem here is that the isk faucet is disconnected from the capture mechanics.

Farmers orbit buttons, but dont care about the warzone. They just switch to whereever the tier or isk/lp is at its highest.
It is a silly system where the honest and hardworking soldiers of the militia have to put their own profit into an ihub just so these farmers make more isk.

I would propose a system where you would gain "capture points" from plexing and missions that you put into the ihub and get rewarded based on ihub contribution with lp.
That way even the farmers will help the noble fight of the caldari militia against the unjustly claimed te
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#113 - 2014-02-27 18:04:10 UTC
Pew Terror wrote:
The main problem here is that the isk faucet is disconnected from the capture mechanics.

Farmers orbit buttons, but dont care about the warzone. They just switch to whereever the tier or isk/lp is at its highest.
It is a silly system where the honest and hardworking soldiers of the militia have to put their own profit into an ihub just so these farmers make more isk.

I would propose a system where you would gain "capture points" from plexing and missions that you put into the ihub and get rewarded based on ihub contribution with lp.
That way even the farmers will help the noble fight of the caldari militia against the unjustly claimed te


Wouldn't really change much, IMO.

Even if LP were paid out similar to the way incursions do - upon completion of the incursion and not before - it wouldn't change the dynamics. Farmers would still orbit buttons just as much as they do now.

Hubs get flipped when a group decides to make a push for warzone control, or in order to provoke a fight. That's not going to change just because offensive plexing LPs get delayed.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Pew Terror
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2014-02-27 18:59:38 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Pew Terror wrote:
The main problem here is that the isk faucet is disconnected from the capture mechanics.

Farmers orbit buttons, but dont care about the warzone. They just switch to whereever the tier or isk/lp is at its highest.
It is a silly system where the honest and hardworking soldiers of the militia have to put their own profit into an ihub just so these farmers make more isk.

I would propose a system where you would gain "capture points" from plexing and missions that you put into the ihub and get rewarded based on ihub contribution with lp.
That way even the farmers will help the noble fight of the caldari militia against the unjustly claimed te


Wouldn't really change much, IMO.

Even if LP were paid out similar to the way incursions do - upon completion of the incursion and not before - it wouldn't change the dynamics. Farmers would still orbit buttons just as much as they do now.

Hubs get flipped when a group decides to make a push for warzone control, or in order to provoke a fight. That's not going to change just because offensive plexing LPs get delayed.


No it wont change much, but those people orbiting buttons made a choice on how to play the game and in the sandbox it is kinda strange to say they are doing it wrong.
All i say is those people that like doing the orbit'n'run should be included in the actual faction warfare system.
Rahelis
Doomheim
#115 - 2014-02-27 20:45:52 UTC
There is no fw system.
Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2014-02-27 21:24:50 UTC
If people were really serious about stopping the farming, we'd make the LP payout system more akin to incursions, i.e. no one gets jack **** for offense until a system is actually flipped. Then you might actually see farmers willing to put more skin into the game or pack up and leave.

But I agree with XG, farmers gonna farm, it's what they do. You can't eliminate the behavior, but you can make it so that it is much more difficult with less pay off than it is now. Timer rollbacks mean it'll be easier to shut down plexers who refuse to fight by forcing them to actually start all over again on the timer if they lose the fight or are forced off the button.

XG is the one who said this, but I believe this point perfectly illustrates what's wrong with the system: an offensive player runs up the timer halfway on a medium plex. He has 10 minutes left when a defender shows up and chases him off. Now the defender has a choice: he can either follow this plexer around to make sure he doesn't plex anywhere else, or he can try to finish off the plex with the normal time, plus the time the WT has already run up on it. If he chooses the first option, he is forced to follow this alt around that has no inclination to fight and is in all probability not fit up for it, and if he loses the WT's trail, the WT can just come back and keep running the timer as if nothing happened. If he chooses the second option, the offensive plexer can go to a different system and finish a new medium plex before the defender can finish the plex he was already in.

In either case, we are penalizing the defender for essentially winning the fight (by forcing his opponent to flee). The incentives are all messed up. The system should not be designed so that it rewards PVP by boredom. You are making it more profitable for the alt to avoid conflict, rather than to actually participate in Faction Warfare. And all it does is hurt the people who are already trying to actually participate in FW, by killing their income, either through destroying their tier, or flooding the market with the same LP items that FWers sell to fund their PVP, all of the proceeds likely going to people who have no real stake in FW.

It makes zero sense to add in all these features to FW to try and get people to participate, then turn a blind eye when the whole thing goes sideways. That is why most people complain about it.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#117 - 2014-02-28 03:06:35 UTC
I like plexes. You can pick your battle and get almost instant PvP in low sec. I really don't have an issue making LP off of them. Any 'sov' mechanic by it's nature will have some dullness to it and the LP helps soften that. Here's a confessions though - no matter what tier my militia is at I generally will only make 1-2 billion isk a month. A higher tier means that I essentially plex less. I'm in this for the pew and bragging rights.

What plexing is for me is a simple man's ship reimbursement program. I think this is common for anyone that regards themselves as 'true' militia. System ownership should in and of itself have it's own rewards. Tying the entirety of the rewards to the mechanical process of taking systems has created the farmer class and no amount of ideas regarding timer resets, dual timers, or harder NPC's will really do away with them. Similarly, waving hands in the air like we just don't care and yelling, "Sandbox!" is ignorant. This is not the best of all possible worlds by any means. Let me throw some ideas on page 6+ of this thread and hope they get read. Roll

LOW-SEC SYSTEMS SECURITY:

Amarr own or have owned systems two jumps out from Hek and three jumps out from Rens. The slave owners are at the gates. Why would the stability of the Minmatar faction not waver? Similarly, why would the Amarr empire not shudder when the fortunes of war are reversed? The security status of low and high sec systems (.1 - 1.0) should be affected by:

Vicinity of enemy controlled systems.
Hardened status of enemy controlled systems. (upgrade level)
Tier level of militia overall.

Vs.

The same of your own militia.

Let systems transfer from high to low depending on the ebb of the war. If Amarr are winning - imagine Hror or Osoggur becoming Low-Sec. Low-sec systems could also become high sec. (Hilarity would ensue if Minmatar, kicking ass, transformed Amamake to .5 status.)

SYSTEM UPGRADE REWARDS:

In addition to the above some extra perks would be nice. Free repairs. Reduced POS fuel needs (for friendly militia.) Maybe some moons or PI perks. Let's face it - you're not going to see miners or belt runners in large numbers in low. But the current upgrades are dumb.

DOCKING RIGHTS:

I'm in Amarr militia. 24th Crusade and the Amarr Empire are my factions. If your ass shoots at me, you shoot take a hit in standing to those factions. After a certain level of animosity, you can't dock in our systems. This is a sandbox - you can do what you want. So can we if you give us the tools. P

Finally - plexing and kill LP. Make it a constant tier two for everyone. The ideas above are what I would really like to see for motivation. I hope I'm not alone. But basing your whole system around a sov mechanic is a recipe for burn-out and silly threads on farming.
Garric Shadowbane
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#118 - 2014-02-28 07:36:15 UTC
BUMPING FOR EVE JUSTICE!
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#119 - 2014-03-01 21:36:47 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:


LOW-SEC SYSTEMS SECURITY:

SYSTEM UPGRADE REWARDS:

DOCKING RIGHTS:

.


There are so many ways to make FW more interesting. It's just up to CCP to actually listen to a couple of them.

The IHUB bash. To make it more interesting, it can actually be something akin to an Incursion site. If an opposing fleet wants to flip a system, instead of wasting 45mins shooting a stationary object, you could have to destroy the FW NPC mothership in the system. This would require much more teamwork, but it could also spawn multiple different way to achieve it. You could use huge talwar fleets, the traditional ABC fleets w/ logi, SHACs, Armor cruisers, etc. The opposition could also disrupt you by using either a large fleet, or even a small fleet with a couple EWAR or sniping ships.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#120 - 2014-03-01 21:40:03 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:


LOW-SEC SYSTEMS SECURITY:

SYSTEM UPGRADE REWARDS:

DOCKING RIGHTS:

.


There are so many ways to make FW more interesting. It's just up to CCP to actually listen to a couple of them.

The IHUB bash. To make it more interesting, it can actually be something akin to an Incursion site. If an opposing fleet wants to flip a system, instead of wasting 45mins shooting a stationary object, you could have to destroy the FW NPC mothership in the system. This would require much more teamwork, but it could also spawn multiple different way to achieve it. You could use huge talwar fleets, the traditional ABC fleets w/ logi, SHACs, Armor cruisers, etc. The opposition could also disrupt you by using either a large fleet, or even a small fleet with a couple EWAR or sniping ships.


More interesting than an undefended IHUB, i guess so. PvE hindrance to consider before ever taking a fight on a IHUB, this too.