Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Creating a mechanic for reputation would be alright by me. Hell, I'd like the ability to track who actually owns the order, tbh.

I once proposed something like it. Industrial, Financial, and Market Analysis Agents (think locator agents that track isk movement). This would allow you to hunt down the person funding that Margin Scamming alt.

This only makes sense if you believe the Margin Trading skill is what scams you. You've fallen for the scam as soon as you've purchased the overpriced items. What happens when you attempt to sell the items is no different than what would happen if the order had been made with "legitimate" intent and you tried to sell to it when the wallet couldn't cover the cost. In both cases, the orders fail for the same exact reason. The only difference is that you're angry because you're sitting on massively overpriced items, while a knowledgeable seller likely wouldn't be angry because they'd be operating within a normal value range for the items. They could just sell at the next opportunity, and wouldn't have to worry about losing perhaps hundreds of millions of ISK on a poorly-researched deal.

Most games don't even allow buy orders in the first place. Player markets in MMOs are usually 100% seller's markets. So really what you're saying is that, hey, there's a new thing to learn about when you start playing EVE. And my response is ... well yeah, duh.

I am all for the game educating players about the market as part of an in-depth tutorial, but I am pretty much against altering the market interface so that there exists some sort of constant "reminder" that everybody has to see even if they're not ignorant, or haven't been for a very long time.

At the same time, I think EVE has a rather unique tradition of relying on shared experience between users as a way of educating players and building up cohesive community bonds that keep people playing the game. As such, I'm not sure that one can really claim injury through simple ignorance if they've avoided the forums almost entirely UNTIL a problem crops up, at which point they only turn to the forums to whine, demand nerfs, and so on. I'm sorry, but I was embroiled in forum research and communication with other traders well before I had hundreds of millions of ISK (now tens of billions) to devote to that career path. Now you have people coming straight off the boat, flush with ISK from the sale of PLEX, convinced that they can jump right in and start trading with minimal knowledge of the markets and of the intricacies of trading in EVE. The Margin Trading scam is the single most talked about scam associated with trading. A cursory combing of the forums for scams would certainly bring up numerous hits on the topic, and asking anybody about scams to watch out for would instantly yield responses about it and people willing to describe in detail how it works and how to avoid it.

There is no excuse, in other words, for being ignorant here. Actually, let me clarify that. It's entirely reasonable to be ignorant about the intricacies of trading in EVE. But it's not reasonable to be ignorant AND claim that the mechanics somehow injured you when you fall for an easily avoidable scam. Your own ignorance is the cause of your injury, not some in-game skill. If you get burned, you use the experience as motivation to never be burned the same way again, and to explore the very ample resources at your disposal to aid in that pursuit. What exactly is "unfair" about this position?

You're not actually suggesting a solution to the Margin Trading scam here. You're suggesting a bunch of unrelated stuff that only introduces new problems to the game and wouldn't solve anything. Could you please explain what you imagine a buyer whose Margin Trade order fails is getting away with currently? Nothing is being borrowed or lent, so there's no reason for anybody's wallet to go negative.

It makes perfect sense. Nobody forces these people to buy the items. It's not like, when you see what appears to be a "great deal," you lose all capacity for control and are arm-twisted into making the purchase. That buy order could disappear for any number of reasons. It turns out that the reason why it disappears is because there isn't enough ISK in the wallet to cover it. But imagine that somebody with the same items purchased at true market value got there ahead of you and attempted to fill the buy order. It would fail just the same. Only this person wouldn't be angry, because they didn't buy overpriced items. They can sell those market-value items to somebody else later on, and feel nothing more than perhaps a twinge of regret that they didn't make an absolute killing on that too-good-to-be-true buy order. The person who bought massively overpriced items, though, is distraught. But you can avoid this with market research. If a single buy order is what you're using to gauge the value of something, then you're trading the wrong way. Pure and simple. What happened to you is your own fault. The Margin Trading skill is not responsible.

In other words, ppl who fall for Margin Trading scams are trusting solely on the game mechanics, wich fails to deliever proper information to them.

Your analysis is a bit shallow. The Margin Trading scam preys on the wishful thinking of the victim. Being ignorant about market mechanics feeds into that, but is not the sole cause of it. I would never have fallen for this scam even as a newb, because while I was at one point ignorant of the market mechanics, I was also duly skeptical of diving into something of which I was so lacking in knowledge. Should I somehow be considered exceptional in this regard? I feel like my experience is actually fairly normal, or at least it was back when I started.

Anyhow, the notion that anybody comes straight off the boat into EVE without any concept of the game's culture, that it's well known for being a lion's den of massive scams, political intrigue, espionage, and so on, is just absurd. The average new player is likely here BECAUSE of the allure of those things. We all know this. So for a new player to encounter these unfamiliar systems and not exhibit at least a modicum of skepticism before engaging with them is totally indefensible.

What limitation to legitimate marketers would be imposed if the orders without ISK (or escrowed margin account) to back up a minimum purchase were removed? The Buyer isn't mad because his order was going to fail the next time someone tried it anyways, in the current iteration. The seller isn't mad because he didn't purchase an overpriced item to fill a deceitful order, unlike in the current iteration. And we have taught a man to fish by actually making marketing a true to UI tool, rather than an even more convoluted guessing game.

That's simple. A limitation on the possibility that the order could be covered before somebody tries to sell to it.



Not if it was covered before somebody tried to sell to it. Under your proposed change, the system forgoes that possibility automatically, thereby breaking the Margin Trading skill. I don't care if you're just talking about the ability to cover one unit at any given time. A nerf is a nerf. Not only do I think it's unfair in and of itself, but even a supposedly "small" nerf just opens the door for more later on.

Fallacies like 'Slippery Slope' are a poor substitute for an actual fix to a broken UI.