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Lasers Need Love
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Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#81 - 2014-02-24 15:59:01 UTC
People need to stop comparing LR to SR in different weapon systems. Its not getting anywhere.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#82 - 2014-02-24 16:28:42 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I think you're kind of missing the point by trying to say they should do different damage types. It's fine that they do just EM/therm; what really needs to be changed is their tracking speed.

It makes NO sense whatsoever for advanced laser weaponry that has had centuries to perfect has comparably the worst tracking out of each of the gun weapon systems for short-range. Yeah sure you can make the argument that it correlates with range, but that makes little sense considering the total range that AC's get, specifically on ships that get falloff range bonuses.

They should flip the two tracking speeds for them around; min ships have plenty of boats that get tracking speed bonuses, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue overall, especially considering amarr lore history and how they are placed in the game technologically. Also, while they're at it, they could swap the Quad Light Beam Laser into a pulse weapon while they're at it...if they could just do that I'll be very happy.

With regards to range, projectiles suffer from falloff, which means that if they are shooting at the same range as lasers, projectiles are doing 50% less dps than normal. So again, while alloff looks good on the numbers, it's horrible on the damage.

When it comes to tracking, projectiles tend be second in line next to hybrids, which have the shortest ranges. So the tracking directly correlates with the range that the weapons shoot. You give second-best tracking to lasers and you're going to leave projectiles in the dust. Aside from frigates and a coupke

Also, don't use lore as an excuse to give one weapon an advantage over another. Aside from frigs and destroyers, the minmatar only have 2 (3 if counting T3) ships with tracking bonuses. So, not plenty of ships with bonuses.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#83 - 2014-02-24 18:51:08 UTC
giving only T2 crystals a different damage type doesnt really make a massive difference. curious as to why its needed though.

pigeon holed damage is a recurring theme in EVE. if we give selectable damage types to lasers, then its time we give all turrets selectable damage types. doing a half way homogenisation across weapon types would probably suck.

or just leave it as is

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Xzanos
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#84 - 2014-02-24 19:32:52 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Howabout give Amarr ships more launcher hardpoints instead? Even if they don't missile spec, it makes sense to assume they would be well aware of their damage type weakness, and would make some sort of arrangements for it. I don't understand why they hate missile launchers almost as much as Gallente do.


Best idea, changing damage types of lasers makes no sense ITS A PHOTON BEAM!

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame
Dieterlin
Reckless-Endangerment
Manifesto.
#85 - 2014-02-24 20:47:21 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I think you're kind of missing the point by trying to say they should do different damage types. It's fine that they do just EM/therm; what really needs to be changed is their tracking speed.

It makes NO sense whatsoever for advanced laser weaponry that has had centuries to perfect has comparably the worst tracking out of each of the gun weapon systems for short-range. Yeah sure you can make the argument that it correlates with range, but that makes little sense considering the total range that AC's get, specifically on ships that get falloff range bonuses.

They should flip the two tracking speeds for them around; min ships have plenty of boats that get tracking speed bonuses, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue overall, especially considering amarr lore history and how they are placed in the game technologically. Also, while they're at it, they could swap the Quad Light Beam Laser into a pulse weapon while they're at it...if they could just do that I'll be very happy.


If we allowed reality to cloud the physics of eve then lasers would indeed track almost instantaneously. They would also damage opponents at the rate of 1dps per laser. Laser technology is an extremely inefficient way to direct energy, generating several orders of magnitude more heat in the source than at the destination (hence heat sinks being the damage mods of lasers).

But in 'reality', you can't get rid of heat very quickly in space so to hit someone with 500dps from your lasers, you'd need to be damaging yourself with 50,000dps. (Assuming the most efficient x-ray lasers).

You'd be better served by firing your escape pods at the enemy.


Lasers would be fantastic space-weapons in reality, what are you talking about with this 1 DPS/100DPS thing?

It's true a laser would heat up the firing ship more than the target ship, but the important thing is what's getting heated and how hot is it getting. The ship firing the laser can distribute the heat from the lasers with coolant and heatsinks, whereas the targeted ship will have all that heat focused somewhere very inconvenient (such as in the crew, or ammunition batteries, or the gun turrets) and probably won't have a nice set of coolant pipelines already set up where the laser is aimed.

But an actual laser weapon would probably be used at ranges where tracking enemy ships would need micro-radian adjustments, sniping from ridiculous ranges (which is the real-life advantage of lasers in space - short time to target, and immune to point defense) not the dramatic sub-150km fights that normally happen in EVE. So we ought to ignore actual laser performance and just make something up that fits in thematically.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#86 - 2014-02-24 21:36:28 UTC
I'm sorry, I read as much of this as I could. The tracking, DPS, and optimal on lasers is fantastic. It does suck that they are stuck with a set damage type. However, last time I got into ANY hybrid platform I had the same issue. Kin/Therm.

Kin/Therm isn't as bad against armor as EM, granted - but it's not like any of these have got a free pass. Besides, I have a 5 second reload time and can't instant swap my ammo.

Missile / Projectile platforms have plenty of drawbacks for having selectable damage types. I disagree with needed to switch lasers.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#87 - 2014-02-24 21:58:09 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
OP are you suggesting to change all the resists on minmatar t2 ships too?

Um… what? The proposal was just to swap out thermal for kinetic damage on the T2 faction crystals (only). That's it. In most cases EM damage will still dominate, so the change isn't as drastic as might appear at first glance. But hey, if players are perfectly fine with EM-Thermal - far be it for me to suggest otherwise...


What I was talking about was that every t2 ammo has 2 primary damage types and according to those damage types opposite faction t2 ships have those resists hardened.

Hail/Barrage - Explosive/Kinetic - vs - Vengeance resists - Explosive/Kinetic

Null/Void - Thermal/Kinetic - vs - Hawk resists - Thermal/Kinetic

Conflag/Scorch - Em/Thermal - vs - Jaguar resists - Em/Thermal

etc.

So when you change to em/kinetic damage on the T2 faction crystals what will you do with minmatar t2 ship resists? Are you going to leave them as is(em/thermal)?
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2014-02-25 09:47:53 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Lasers can't be made good without significantly redesigning the game. It's not a problem with cap use, damage type, or fitting. The problem is nobody wants the things that lasers are good at.

Beam lasers offer the best DPS and tracking when people are looking for the best alpha or the best range when they fit a long-range weapon system.

Scorch's range advantage isn't good enough on BS hulls because there are no BS hulls that get both a damage bonus and optimal range bonus. Compare the DPS and range of pulse lasers with Scorch to railguns with CN antimatter loaded, there's very little difference. The ability of the railgun user to snipe from afar is far more valuable than the ability of the pulse laser user to deal more DPS when up close.

Lasers are very very good on cruiser hulls because cruiser hulls can actually get both an optimal range bonus and a damage bonus. Laser hulls that have both of these are pretty much all exceptional, but unfortunately they're the only laser platforms that are any good.


This guys gets it. Laser have many advantages it's just that those advantages are undesirable by players. Let's look more closely at pros and cons:

Advantages:

Long range: it's not long range it's scorch. But a long range in brawling fights does not give you that much. Primary target will be locked in place, so you only do more damage for that brief time when you fly to the target (because the point is to go conflag to do as much dmg as possible to punch through rr). It's only OP in PvE coz you do short range dmg on long range. In PvP it only gives small bonus. For beams others have pointed out that rails get more range...

Instant changing of ammo types: in most pvp scenarios missiles (HAM and HML) don't need to switch ammo according to range. the same with hybrids (u spend more time swapping ammo then flying to target). Projectiles are swapped mid-fight but they get a huge return on that by shooting in the resist hole. Instant swapping of ammo does not give laser the advantage - it closes the gap between the other weapons who have much more powerful traits (raw dps, selectable dmg types)

No need to carry a lot of ammo in cargo: LOL. I do PvP for 1,5 year now Only once I saw a fleet run out of ammo. It's not an advantage coz for other races need to use ammo is not a disadvantage. They can carry more than enough ammo in their holds (for PvP, for PvE u run out of missiles sometimes), and have little to none risk of running out of it. So this advantage for lasers is nothing but cr*p) further reinforced by fact that T2 laser ammo DOES run out.

Disadvantages:

EM/Thr - no different that hybrids Kin/Thr? Wrong. Every T1 ship has high Em/Thr resist. With T2 ships its more balanced. BUT u don’t do a lot of DPS. So not only you shoot in high resist you also shoot with mediocre DPS.

Cap use - no need to say more. It not only affect weapon itself it also affects hulls who need -10% cap use bonus which is not really a bonus (Why Revelation is the worst Dread - except phoenix that is Big smile).

Low tracking - again the real value on close range gun is your maximal dmg to go through rr. So you need tracking. Well you have the worst - DESPITE no selectable dmg types and mediocre dps.

So lasers look good on paper, they can also be used effectively if used properly (both PvE and PvP) BUT they will always be less desirable by FCs that hybrids and projectiles. They just don't have any IMPOTANT advantage over them...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#89 - 2014-02-25 10:50:32 UTC
Lasers need a decrease in cap use. The entire T1 ammo set needs redone(more than half of them may as well not exist).

And the Amarr in general need better access to missiles. Particularly, as some have mentioned, the T1 frigate line needs a missile boat. There is no goddamn need to have 3 laser DPS frigates.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#90 - 2014-02-25 12:49:43 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Lasers can't be made good without significantly redesigning the game. It's not a problem with cap use, damage type, or fitting. The problem is nobody wants the things that lasers are good at.

Beam lasers offer the best DPS and tracking when people are looking for the best alpha or the best range when they fit a long-range weapon system.

Scorch's range advantage isn't good enough on BS hulls because there are no BS hulls that get both a damage bonus and optimal range bonus. Compare the DPS and range of pulse lasers with Scorch to railguns with CN antimatter loaded, there's very little difference. The ability of the railgun user to snipe from afar is far more valuable than the ability of the pulse laser user to deal more DPS when up close.

Lasers are very very good on cruiser hulls because cruiser hulls can actually get both an optimal range bonus and a damage bonus. Laser hulls that have both of these are pretty much all exceptional, but unfortunately they're the only laser platforms that are any good.


This guys gets it. Laser have many advantages it's just that those advantages are undesirable by players. Let's look more closely at pros and cons:

Advantages:

Long range: it's not long range it's scorch. But a long range in brawling fights does not give you that much. Primary target will be locked in place, so you only do more damage for that brief time when you fly to the target (because the point is to go conflag to do as much dmg as possible to punch through rr). It's only OP in PvE coz you do short range dmg on long range. In PvP it only gives small bonus. For beams others have pointed out that rails get more range...

Instant changing of ammo types: in most pvp scenarios missiles (HAM and HML) don't need to switch ammo according to range. the same with hybrids (u spend more time swapping ammo then flying to target). Projectiles are swapped mid-fight but they get a huge return on that by shooting in the resist hole. Instant swapping of ammo does not give laser the advantage - it closes the gap between the other weapons who have much more powerful traits (raw dps, selectable dmg types)

No need to carry a lot of ammo in cargo: LOL. I do PvP for 1,5 year now Only once I saw a fleet run out of ammo. It's not an advantage coz for other races need to use ammo is not a disadvantage. They can carry more than enough ammo in their holds (for PvP, for PvE u run out of missiles sometimes), and have little to none risk of running out of it. So this advantage for lasers is nothing but cr*p) further reinforced by fact that T2 laser ammo DOES run out.

Disadvantages:

EM/Thr - no different that hybrids Kin/Thr? Wrong. Every T1 ship has high Em/Thr resist. With T2 ships its more balanced. BUT u don’t do a lot of DPS. So not only you shoot in high resist you also shoot with mediocre DPS.

Cap use - no need to say more. It not only affect weapon itself it also affects hulls who need -10% cap use bonus which is not really a bonus (Why Revelation is the worst Dread - except phoenix that is Big smile).

Low tracking - again the real value on close range gun is your maximal dmg to go through rr. So you need tracking. Well you have the worst - DESPITE no selectable dmg types and mediocre dps.

So lasers look good on paper, they can also be used effectively if used properly (both PvE and PvP) BUT they will always be less desirable by FCs that hybrids and projectiles. They just don't have any IMPOTANT advantage over them...


Shooting high resist? No... Every T1 ship in the game and most T2 ships have 0% EM resist on shields, and 50% on armor. I will grant that this isnt great if it is an armor tanked ship, but every shield tanked ship other than Minmatar T2 ships are filling in the deepest resist hole possible with a module or rig or suffering withering damage with no resist. Thermal isn't much better, its low on both armor and shields except on a few T2 hulls. By no means are you always hitting high resist with lasers and unless they fit specifically against it you are tearing shields right off.

Nor is your tracking that bad. It is perfectly fine for you to pull a little range and actually use your weapons as designed. If you choose not to use them that way then that is pilot error and you probably should be looking at Caldari or Gallente hulls with bonuses to blasters. You know why blasters have such high tracking? Because the optimal on our longest range ammo is only 15k for battleship guns, and around 5k for high damage ammo... It would almost be easier to dock with the enemy ship and just stab the opposing pilot.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2014-02-25 13:39:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Shooting high resist? No... Every T1 ship in the game and most T2 ships have 0% EM resist on shields, and 50% on armor. I will grant that this isnt great if it is an armor tanked ship, but every shield tanked ship other than Minmatar T2 ships are filling in the deepest resist hole possible with a module or rig or suffering withering damage with no resist. Thermal isn't much better, its low on both armor and shields except on a few T2 hulls. By no means are you always hitting high resist with lasers and unless they fit specifically against it you are tearing shields right off.

Nor is your tracking that bad. It is perfectly fine for you to pull a little range and actually use your weapons as designed. If you choose not to use them that way then that is pilot error and you probably should be looking at Caldari or Gallente hulls with bonuses to blasters. You know why blasters have such high tracking? Because the optimal on our longest range ammo is only 15k for battleship guns, and around 5k for high damage ammo... It would almost be easier to dock with the enemy ship and just stab the opposing pilot.


Well do don't have trouble using my lasers. I just fly both gallente and ammar and its much easier to apply dmg in PvP when using balsters. It's not a question if laser as good or bad. It's a question of if they are good or bad in comparison to other weapon systems. They are bad. Yes they need good piloting skills to get range/tracking right. That further reduces thier use.

I did ignore the fact the shields have 0 EM resist. Why? 1) amarr as armour ships will be fighting other armour ships. (exept oracle maybe). 2) When you heve 0 resists u will plug tha hole. All shield ships get em hardener or at least a rig. An armour ship will rearly get an explosive specific resist module unless its galletne.

Range in PvP does not matter (that much). All ships fit MWD, AB, MJD. You have scramblers and webs. Fights happen on strgates, wormholes, station udocks, PoSe. You don't fight in open space. So tell we when do you need renge advantege, execept in the process of flying from one primary to another?
Seliah
Blades of Liberty
#92 - 2014-02-25 13:54:47 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:

I did ignore the fact the shields have 0 EM resist. Why? 1) amarr as armour ships will be fighting other armour ships. (exept oracle maybe).


I'm really not following your logic there.

Cassius Invictus wrote:

2) When you heve 0 resists u will plug tha hole. All shield ships get em hardener or at least a rig. An armour ship will rearly get an explosive specific resist module unless its galletne.


Plugging holes doesn't come for free, and unless you tank specifically for it, the 0% EM hole in shields will usually remain your lowest resist.

Cassius Invictus wrote:

Range in PvP does not matter (that much). All ships fit MWD, AB, MJD. You have scramblers and webs. Fights happen on strgates, wormholes, station udocks, PoSe. You don't fight in open space. So tell we when do you need renge advantege, execept in the process of flying from one primary to another?


What ?
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2014-02-25 13:57:49 UTC
Seliah wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:

Range in PvP does not matter (that much). All ships fit MWD, AB, MJD. You have scramblers and webs. Fights happen on strgates, wormholes, station udocks, PoSe. You don't fight in open space. So tell we when do you need renge advantege, execept in the process of flying from one primary to another?


What ?


I almost spat out my tea when I read that. Range is about the single most defining factor in the outcome of an engagement is it not?

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Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#94 - 2014-02-25 14:06:57 UTC
You all know that Explosive+EM T2 crystals exist in the game's data already, right?

Blaze- T2 Pulse Ammo

Lux- T2 Beam Ammo

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#95 - 2014-02-25 14:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
wonder if they were left out for good reason...

the damage type of lasers isnt imbalanced.

they are great against shields, weaker against armour.

good against Amar t2, moderate against caldari and gallente T2, and terrible against minnie T2


Blasters on the other hand

moderate at both shield and armour

moderate against amarr and minnie T2. Terrible against caldari and gallente T2.



looks great. what is the problem? infact i think i prefer the lasers damage type

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#96 - 2014-02-25 17:36:58 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Shooting high resist? No... Every T1 ship in the game and most T2 ships have 0% EM resist on shields, and 50% on armor. I will grant that this isnt great if it is an armor tanked ship, but every shield tanked ship other than Minmatar T2 ships are filling in the deepest resist hole possible with a module or rig or suffering withering damage with no resist. Thermal isn't much better, its low on both armor and shields except on a few T2 hulls. By no means are you always hitting high resist with lasers and unless they fit specifically against it you are tearing shields right off.

Nor is your tracking that bad. It is perfectly fine for you to pull a little range and actually use your weapons as designed. If you choose not to use them that way then that is pilot error and you probably should be looking at Caldari or Gallente hulls with bonuses to blasters. You know why blasters have such high tracking? Because the optimal on our longest range ammo is only 15k for battleship guns, and around 5k for high damage ammo... It would almost be easier to dock with the enemy ship and just stab the opposing pilot.


Well do don't have trouble using my lasers. I just fly both gallente and ammar and its much easier to apply dmg in PvP when using balsters. It's not a question if laser as good or bad. It's a question of if they are good or bad in comparison to other weapon systems. They are bad. Yes they need good piloting skills to get range/tracking right. That further reduces thier use.

I did ignore the fact the shields have 0 EM resist. Why? 1) amarr as armour ships will be fighting other armour ships. (exept oracle maybe). 2) When you heve 0 resists u will plug tha hole. All shield ships get em hardener or at least a rig. An armour ship will rearly get an explosive specific resist module unless its galletne.

Range in PvP does not matter (that much). All ships fit MWD, AB, MJD. You have scramblers and webs. Fights happen on strgates, wormholes, station udocks, PoSe. You don't fight in open space. So tell we when do you need renge advantege, execept in the process of flying from one primary to another?


So.... Your argument is that because lasers are not the absolute best weapon in every catagory and the perfect choice in every situation that they are bad?

Sorry, no. Blasters have huge paper dps, much less applied dps. At the ranges they can apply their dps they need those hull bonuses to tracking just to hit.... Kinda like that 'wasted' cap bonus that many Amarr hulls get. True, if you have enough support to set up the perfect environment blasters will do more damage... But that does not make them over all superior, and if you are commonly flying in fleets where that level of support exists, then I guess you should stick with the blasters.

The ships you face that filled in the EM hole that you choose to ignore.... You know what else you get to ignore? Whatever else they would have put in that slot.... like maybe a tracking disruptor, sensor dampener, any of several rigs that would have hurt you more... Who knows? You didnt have to face it because they had to fill the hole with an EM resist mod instead, or else you got to shoot into a deep resist hole and that is worth nothing to you somehow.

Every weapon has its drawback. If the drawback of lasers seems like too much, use something else you like better. Liking chocolate does not make vanilla bad, and liking hybrids does not make lasers bad.
Kal'el Nirukhi
Spartan Industries
#97 - 2014-02-25 18:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kal'el Nirukhi
we could

- add some variation to the signature of guns with the amarr having the smallest signature and the minmatar the biggest:
f.e. the heavy beam laser has a smaller sig than a 720mm Howitzer ii even though they are both medium sized

- variate the signature between the different sub- sizes in each class: f.e. 220mm AC has a smaller sig than 425mm AC

Edit:

We can keep the rail guns at the current signature size ( 40-100-400m), have the lasers a bit smaller ( 36-90-360 ) and the minmatar guns a bit larger ( 44-110-440m)


TLDR: Gun signature is a stat we can use to balance guns
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#98 - 2014-02-25 19:10:49 UTC
Kal'el Nirukhi wrote:
we could

- add some variation to the signature of guns with the amarr having the smallest signature and the minmatar the biggest:
f.e. the heavy beam laser has a smaller sig than a 720mm Howitzer ii even though they are both medium sized

- variate the signature between the different sub- sizes in each class: f.e. 220mm AC has a smaller sig than 425mm AC

Edit:

We can keep the rail guns at the current signature size ( 40-100-400m), have the lasers a bit smaller ( 36-90-360 ) and the minmatar guns a bit larger ( 44-110-440m)


TLDR: Gun signature is a stat we can use to balance guns


Stunning idea. Poor tracking (which we already have) in exchange for a reduced penalty against small targets. Sounds very laser-ish to me (seriously, why should a pinpoint of light care what size the target is?). I approve.

Overhaul Dscan!
Damien White
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#99 - 2014-02-25 19:53:12 UTC
Indeed, great idea.

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"DO A BARREL ROLL!"
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2014-02-25 22:23:51 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Seliah wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:

Range in PvP does not matter (that much). All ships fit MWD, AB, MJD. You have scramblers and webs. Fights happen on strgates, wormholes, station udocks, PoSe. You don't fight in open space. So tell we when do you need renge advantege, execept in the process of flying from one primary to another?


What ?


I almost spat out my tea when I read that. Range is about the single most defining factor in the outcome of an engagement is it not?


Maybe do something other than PvE....