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Missile Boat questions

Author
Cyber Op
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-02-23 03:17:58 UTC
Hello been mostly into guns for a while but looking at switching over to missiles for running LV4's Just got my marauder skill trained looking at getting into a golem maybe.

My question is while I train caldari BS from 3 to 5 I need something to fly. My minnie BS skill is lvl 5 so could run a typhoon/ fleet typhoon or should I just grab a raven/ navy raven scorp? Can use tech 2 launchers so good there.

My question about missle dps is at what point is velocity an increase to dps (flight time faster) and how does it collate to Rate of Fire? Or am I just over thinking this crap?
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#2 - 2014-02-23 03:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
Velocity will give you more range, because missiles have a built in flight time. Twice the velocity would effectively fly twice as far in a fixed time frame.
Rate of fire will increase DPS, same as with guns.
These are more or less, 2 different aspects of missiles.

I have heard that a Cruise Typhoon is a great mission ship these days. I have never used a Phoon for anything but PvP though.

I personally like a CNR (Navy Raven), but your ship skills at V might make the Typhoon a clear choice.


Edit here:
You're gonna want good light drones for level IV's.
If you're new to IV's, the Navy Scorp would tank better.

Whatever ship you try will hold its value. You could always sell it later (If you don't lose it)
If you're worried about loss, T1 Raven or Phoon is more *Insurance Friendly*
Cyber Op
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-02-23 04:28:52 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Velocity will give you more range, because missiles have a built in flight time. Twice the velocity would effectively fly twice as far in a fixed time frame.
Rate of fire will increase DPS, same as with guns.
These are more or less, 2 different aspects of missiles.

I have heard that a Cruise Typhoon is a great mission ship these days. I have never used a Phoon for anything but PvP though.

I personally like a CNR (Navy Raven), but your ship skills at V might make the Typhoon a clear choice.


Edit here:
You're gonna want good light drones for level IV's.
If you're new to IV's, the Navy Scorp would tank better.

Whatever ship you try will hold its value. You could always sell it later (If you don't lose it)
If you're worried about loss, T1 Raven or Phoon is more *Insurance Friendly*



hmm thought velocity made the missile travel faster which gave it more range but also take less time to get to the target effectively allowing for your RoF to be applied better. Less over shooting volleys less having to count.

Typhoon I havnt really played around in much and ya done lvl4 but in maelstrom long time ago. Mostly was out in renter space using a navy scorp for sites at the time since my SP's were much lower back then.
Gh0stBust3rs
Templars HIghsec
Stellar Fusion
#4 - 2014-02-23 04:37:06 UTC
Cyber Op wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Velocity will give you more range, because missiles have a built in flight time. Twice the velocity would effectively fly twice as far in a fixed time frame.
Rate of fire will increase DPS, same as with guns.
These are more or less, 2 different aspects of missiles.

I have heard that a Cruise Typhoon is a great mission ship these days. I have never used a Phoon for anything but PvP though.

I personally like a CNR (Navy Raven), but your ship skills at V might make the Typhoon a clear choice.


Edit here:
You're gonna want good light drones for level IV's.
If you're new to IV's, the Navy Scorp would tank better.

Whatever ship you try will hold its value. You could always sell it later (If you don't lose it)
If you're worried about loss, T1 Raven or Phoon is more *Insurance Friendly*



hmm thought velocity made the missile travel faster which gave it more range but also take less time to get to the target effectively allowing for your RoF to be applied better. Less over shooting volleys less having to count.

Typhoon I havnt really played around in much and ya done lvl4 but in maelstrom long time ago. Mostly was out in renter space using a navy scorp for sites at the time since my SP's were much lower back then.



A T2 Cruise Typhoon can easily toss out 800 dps and tank 1200 dps with a stable tank. Or you could go the mjd route with a medium rep and fit more damage. Ultimately though selectiable damage type is very nice. Have you looked into the Vargur though? Projectiles are almost as good as missiles for selecting damage plus the benifit of being instant dps+ bastion?
Last i checked an AC Vargur with Bastion can project like 800 dps out to 90km.

Cyber Op
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-02-23 05:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyber Op
Gh0stBust3rs wrote:
Cyber Op wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Velocity will give you more range, because missiles have a built in flight time. Twice the velocity would effectively fly twice as far in a fixed time frame.
Rate of fire will increase DPS, same as with guns.
These are more or less, 2 different aspects of missiles.

I have heard that a Cruise Typhoon is a great mission ship these days. I have never used a Phoon for anything but PvP though.

I personally like a CNR (Navy Raven), but your ship skills at V might make the Typhoon a clear choice.


Edit here:
You're gonna want good light drones for level IV's.
If you're new to IV's, the Navy Scorp would tank better.

Whatever ship you try will hold its value. You could always sell it later (If you don't lose it)
If you're worried about loss, T1 Raven or Phoon is more *Insurance Friendly*



hmm thought velocity made the missile travel faster which gave it more range but also take less time to get to the target effectively allowing for your RoF to be applied better. Less over shooting volleys less having to count.

Typhoon I havnt really played around in much and ya done lvl4 but in maelstrom long time ago. Mostly was out in renter space using a navy scorp for sites at the time since my SP's were much lower back then.



A T2 Cruise Typhoon can easily toss out 800 dps and tank 1200 dps with a stable tank. Or you could go the mjd route with a medium rep and fit more damage. Ultimately though selectiable damage type is very nice. Have you looked into the Vargur though? Projectiles are almost as good as missiles for selecting damage plus the benifit of being instant dps+ bastion?
Last i checked an AC Vargur with Bastion can project like 800 dps out to 90km.



Thinking about it ... the TE nerf really hurt my old maelstrom AC fit had to switch it to arty which are ok .. but ugh cycle rate so poopy. Bit worried about the fall off damage and getting tracking disrupted ... nothing worse then hitting like a limp noodle at range. If your damage on AC in vargur in bastion mode can be applied out to 60kish at full dps with emp ammo prolly would think about it.

Do you know any good up to date typhoon fits or vargur fits? Rather not have to isk tank it too much got 2bill to spend which should be plenty but thats all my wallet has lol.
Gh0stBust3rs
Templars HIghsec
Stellar Fusion
#6 - 2014-02-23 06:08:04 UTC
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#7 - 2014-02-23 06:13:52 UTC
You're right about the *less time to get there*, but that only really matters on the first volley.
After that, ROF still dictates every impact. the time is still constant.
With missiles, I call this the 'rate of impact'.
You can actually increase your rate of impact, by simply burning straight at the target, and decreasing the distance/flight time. (effectively increasing DPS in the final seconds)
And in contrast, you decrease your rate of impact if you are running away from the target.

That said: If Cruisers take 3 volleys to kill, increasing velocity or rate of impact won't really lessen the amount of volleys needed to kill him. ROF will still determine the time frame for you to re-target the next cruiser.
I think every missioner, guns or missiles, more or less counts volleys.
Because of delayed damage application, I think missile lobbers send quite a lot of extra volleys over their career. (Because it's better to lob 1 more volley, than to come back to an old target)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#8 - 2014-02-23 16:53:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
I use a Typhoon for running missions and it's a lot of fun if you run it with ab and manual pilot it. I use armour tank with 3x TPs, AB and cap booster. It engages nicely around 40km, which gives it shorter missile flight times too. I prefer it to any of the Caldari missile boats, even navy ones.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#9 - 2014-02-24 11:03:56 UTC
if you are in amarr space get a paladin or golem. if you can only use vargur go to minmatar space. golem will work in minmatar space as well. golem beats both in gurista space and probably serp too but in amarr and minmitar their respective marauders are better.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2014-02-24 13:08:13 UTC
Raven navy issue (applies damage well with great cruise range).
then golem.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#11 - 2014-03-22 17:47:44 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
Raven navy issue (applies damage well with great cruise range).
then golem.



The golem is better than the navy raven easily. The navy raven change was garbage.
Jason Station
Critical Mass Inc
#12 - 2014-03-22 18:40:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Station
I use Fleet Typhoons for level 4s. With BS 5 and the damage bonus it can actually throw out a lot of damage. If I recall I was do far more damage than a CNR. The downside was the shorter targeting range, but the Typhoon is significantly faster and has a much smaller signature radius.

Cheap Gist AB and cheap Gist shield booster (C and B respectively I think, it was left over from an older ship)

If the rats has defender missiles though it can impact your DPS since you have six launchers versus the eight on the CNR.
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#13 - 2014-03-22 19:13:45 UTC
Cyber Op wrote:
Bit worried about the fall off damage and getting tracking disrupted ....

Ehm... You do know that bastion makes it so tracking disruption won't affect you right? And the range boost you get with Bastion gives you a looot better range than you'd normally have?

Plus you can always fit it with an MJD, so if the targets are at 90km just MJD to them and be in optimal range and use tracking scripts and shred them.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#14 - 2014-03-23 01:33:02 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
I use a Typhoon for running missions and it's a lot of fun if you run it with ab and manual pilot it. I use armour tank with 3x TPs, AB and cap booster. It engages nicely around 40km, which gives it shorter missile flight times too. I prefer it to any of the Caldari missile boats, even navy ones.


Try mjd fleet typhoon with 4 cruises and 4 artillery. Don't forget that sweet 200m3 drone bay and load it up with 10 hobs for quickly dispatching enemy frigs that manage to close range.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#15 - 2014-03-23 20:13:00 UTC
Cyber Op wrote:
Hello been mostly into guns for a while but looking at switching over to missiles for running LV4's Just got my marauder skill trained looking at getting into a golem maybe.

My question is while I train caldari BS from 3 to 5 I need something to fly. My minnie BS skill is lvl 5 so could run a typhoon/ fleet typhoon or should I just grab a raven/ navy raven scorp? Can use tech 2 launchers so good there.

My question about missle dps is at what point is velocity an increase to dps (flight time faster) and how does it collate to Rate of Fire? Or am I just over thinking this crap?

You could also try a Navy Scorpion, which arguably has the highest tank. As others have indicated, missile velocity won't increase your DPS - but it will cut down on lost volleys with a reduced time to target (particularly with hulls that have rate of fire bonuses).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#16 - 2014-03-23 21:54:23 UTC
Cyber Op wrote:
hmm thought velocity made the missile travel faster which gave it more range but also take less time to get to the target effectively allowing for your RoF to be applied better. Less over shooting volleys less having to count.


That is correct.



I've had good experiences, last month, flying some L4 missions for Caldari Navy in a totally pimped Navy Raven. High-meta Ballistic Control system, cruise launchers, and so forth.

As for your missile boat, you need to decide whether you want to use T2 missile, thus binding yourself to T2 launchers, or if you want to go with higher-meta launchers (such as Caldari Navy missile launchers) which bars you from using T2 missiles, forcing you to chooes between the cheap T1 missiles or the expensive-but-high-damage faction missiles (primarily Caldari Navy missiles).

I've gone for faction. But that's because when I started playing, T2 missiles had a bunch of drawbacks when fitted into launchers. Those drawbacks have been changed now, some of them removed, so the balance is different, and while my decision back then was defensible, it may be iffier now. Depends a lot on whether the L4 mission running is recreational (fun to blow **** up) or for profit. Not saying you won't profit using faction missiles, but their cost does eat into your profit margin.

Either way, you're gonna want to put a lot of Ballistics Control System in your LOW slots. Or, specifically, at least 3, maybe 4, but never more than 4. Stacking penalty just bites a huge chunk out of your ass after the 4th. But you want your DPS severely pimped, so at least 3 of those. Either T1, T2 or faction BCS, faction usually meaning Caldari Navy or equivalent meta level.

In RIG slots, you want Flare and Rigor rigs. One of each, two of the other. I can't remember which one it is you need 2 of, but others can help you with that.

And yes, as the other guy said, you're gonna want a flight of light drones, 5 of them, preferably T2. I favour Warrior II, because they're fast. You're also gonna want to train Drone Interfacing to 4 pretty soon, if you haven't got that already. DI is good for all drone-using ships, not just Caldari ships, so that's one skill you're never going to regret training. The return-on-investment on that skill is freakin' insane. I happily trained mine to 5 many years ago.

Some mission runners bring along different sets of light drones, so they can apply different damage. I just go for 5xT2 Warrior, then if I have room 5xSalvage Drone, then if I still have room, I go for a spare flight of T2 Warrior drone. I used Mobile Tractor Unit last month, but nowadays I think I'd just leave it at home, and just grab the salvage with my drones. Handling loot is a lot of trouble for usually very little gain.

I also omni-tank. Can't be arsed to switch shield hardeners in and out. I do make sure I have different shield hardeners, and other modules (such as modules to improve sensor strength) at my mission base, so that I can swap out stuff if I find myself needing it. But I'm lazy, and I have the skillz to be able to get away with omni-tanking.

You may want an AB. Ravens and other battleships are slow-ass when the acceleration gate is 25 km from warp-in. But maybe you don't want to fit it, leaving it in your mission base instead, so you can fly back and fit it if you find that you need it. I fitted one, and used it a lot. A little extra "speed tank" seems to help.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#17 - 2014-03-24 03:44:09 UTC
Salpad wrote:
In RIG slots, you want Flare and Rigor rigs. One of each, two of the other. I can't remember which one it is you need 2 of, but others can help you with that.

3x T1 rigor, or 2x T2 Rigor and 1x T2 Flare.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.