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Wormholes

 
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Dear Chitsa,

First post First post
Author
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-02-21 20:34:51 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Proclus Diadochu wrote:


Yea, noone has ever seeded from a k-space to a wormhole... ever.

Also, I'll jump two dreads, maintain hole control to regen the wormhole, then bring in more, and rinse and repeat.

Biomass, you pubbie f*ck scrub.


You're not very good at this clever thing are you?

First off how are you going to seed from k space if you need to be INSIDE the wormhole in order to activate this structure? Well yes you could put a spy in there but the activation timer on the structure can be hours. Long enough for the true residence to ask themselves, what is up and destroy it.

Next, the structure works to stablize the wormhole by regenerating it but lowering the mass that can pass through. One can think of it as buffer vs active tank. The wormhole wouldn't have the "buffer" for you jumping your dreads in, but it would have the "active tank" to allow one to pass multiple cruiser groups over an extended period of time.

This stops the issues which you brought up (even though I had aldready addressed them) while allowing w-spacers consistent interaction with k-space.

Chitsa Jason wrote:
Hey Seraph I always liked you analysis of null sec of en24 as it gives brief insight to what is going on. However before going to far into features and theory please contact people who have been living here for a while and know the culture of it as well as how it can progress. If you want drop me a chat or eve mail and we can chat.



I've been in contact with them for a while and this discussing here is meant to only further understanding! I welcome your invite at a personal discussion in the future as well.



I would love to speak to you but you are not even online.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#82 - 2014-02-21 20:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph IX Basarab
Proclus Diadochu wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Proclus Diadochu wrote:
Like I said, you are out of your depth, I'm not going to try to explain this anymore to a kid who has no clue how evictions or invasions work. Introduce your stabilizer, and we'll just abuse it till it's removed.



Except you can't abuse it because nothing you've provided would work.


Yes it would. You just don't understand wormholes.


How would it work when it doesn't bring any advantage to either side and has nothing to do with w vs w space engagements? You can't use the structure to jump huge reinforcements. You can limit the size of ships that jump through so it's only cruisers and lower and limit the mass so much that only 10 or so people jump in over a prolonged period of time. So again you have no argument. All you can do is call people names.

Chitsa Jason wrote:



I would love to speak to you but you are not even online.


Not home. Wasting some time before some things happen. Feel free to mail me or i'll msg you in game sometime this weekend.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2014-02-21 20:38:39 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

some renter rich region full of targets.


No, you are absolutely awful and your ideas are awful. However even a broken clock is right twice a day and as a very broken clock you hit this particular nail right on the head. The problem right now is NOT that w-space cannot serve as a staging point from which you descend onto k-space, in fact w-space is ideally suited for such an activity, no the problem is that there are FEW TO NO REGIONS FULL OF TARGETS. Let me state that again in a different way, W-space is fine but NULL sec and LOW sec don't have the needed population density in order for w-space to be this awesome region to raid from.

So now you need to ask the next question, why is NULL sec mostly empty? Because the ease-of-travel mechanics allow for large coalition building. The effort it takes to gather all your members into one system is trivial compared to w-space. Therefore we have half the null sec population camping a station and the other half stuck inside it. Whenever anything of theirs gets reinforced, they simply utilize their bridge network to bring in overwhelming numbers. Thus these wars and deployments concentrate large percentage of null players into a few systems/regions while our wormholes open randomly into all of null.

No amount of wormhole stabilization will help, yeah you might be able to maintain a connection into a pretty populated region but its still a crap shoot when it comes to opening into the said region. Furthermore the amount of side effects such stabilization is going to bring is not desirable by the w-space community at large.

So now you can see why people don't want the wormhole stabilization, because it will make travelling easier and that will decrease the appeal of w-space. You can see why w-space players don't want to fight for systems, it will make w-space more on par with null sec and look at how that one is working out. We like our system, we just want minor tweaks to it that will improve it, not massive game changers.
J3rz11
Suddenly Carebears
#84 - 2014-02-21 20:43:44 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:

It is very sad for me that you try to get the idea of how I organize operations based of one soundcloud. It though understandable as that thing is the most public thing I have ever achieved ever.

I have great respect for HK and their input to wormhole space promotion as it is. Even further every time I am at work I check cap kills on evekill and HK are the ones who usually surprise me. So kudos


First off, i didnt base my opinion off of the soundcloud....i was at your meeting, I've also listen to you run off these ideas on comms on multiple occasion too.

Also, out of curiosity, i joined on of your 'bobisgreat' fleets. you spent 1-2 hours preaching your ideas of a unified WH space against null. Then it toke another hour for you to move said fleet through LS before ultimately accomplishing nothing.

I got nothing again the idea of doing community activities, thats a great thing, especially for the smaller/newer groups. But just stop trying to label them as 'the way to put WH space on the map.' I admire your ambition as a person to make WH space better and more attractive. I just think your looking at it all wrong, but that''s just my personal opinion.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#85 - 2014-02-21 20:45:45 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

some renter rich region full of targets.


No, you are absolutely awful and your ideas are awful. However even a broken clock is right twice a day and as a very broken clock you hit this particular nail right on the head. The problem right now is NOT that w-space cannot serve as a staging point from which you descend onto k-space, in fact w-space is ideally suited for such an activity, no the problem is that there are FEW TO NO REGIONS FULL OF TARGETS. Let me state that again in a different way, W-space is fine but NULL sec and LOW sec don't have the needed population density in order for w-space to be this awesome region to raid from.

So now you need to ask the next question, why is NULL sec mostly empty? Because the ease-of-travel mechanics allow for large coalition building. The effort it takes to gather all your members into one system is trivial compared to w-space. Therefore we have half the null sec population camping a station and the other half stuck inside it. Whenever anything of theirs gets reinforced, they simply utilize their bridge network to bring in overwhelming numbers. Thus these wars and deployments concentrate large percentage of null players into a few systems/regions while our wormholes open randomly into all of null.

No amount of wormhole stabilization will help, yeah you might be able to maintain a connection into a pretty populated region but its still a crap shoot when it comes to opening into the said region. Furthermore the amount of side effects such stabilization is going to bring is not desirable by the w-space community at large.

So now you can see why people don't want the wormhole stabilization, because it will make travelling easier and that will decrease the appeal of w-space. You can see why w-space players don't want to fight for systems, it will make w-space more on par with null sec and look at how that one is working out. We like our system, we just want minor tweaks to it that will improve it, not massive game changers.


I know my posts get long but it really helps if you read them so I don't have to repeat what was already said.

I already brought up the issue that 0.0 needs farms and fields. That's a given, regardless of what we do in w-space. Next, "wormhole stablization" is a vague term that doesn't accurately express the idea at all. The structure doesn't allow for ease of traveling because the structure limits the amount of ships that can pass through. For example:

Say wormhole A opens up in 0.0. For the sake of argument you can jump 15 man t3 gang all at once. This makes the wormhole become instable so that the next time you jump your 15 man group, it falls apart. The structure regenerates the wormhole, but only to the point where you can jump in 5 of your ships every few hours. Too many and you spike the wormhole and falls apart regardless of the structure.

This allows small number of ships to pass through over an extended period of time. The added perk of allowing w-space pick where the wormhole opens up allows w-space to stay relevant. There is no "ease of movement" there is only an ease of which w-space can affect k-space, not the other way around. See if for what it is, not what you think it is.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2014-02-21 20:53:25 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Hey Seraph I always liked you analysis of null sec of en24 as it gives brief insight to what is going on. However before going to far into features and theory please contact people who have been living here for a while and know the culture of it as well as how it can progress. If you want drop me a chat or eve mail and we can chat.

I've been in contact with them for a while and this discussing here is meant to only further understanding! I welcome your invite at a personal discussion in the future as well.

I would love to speak to you but you are not even online.
I tried to start some rational dialogue with him too, to no avail. So good luck to you.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2014-02-21 21:05:11 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

I know my posts get long but it really helps if you read them so I don't have to repeat what was already said.

I already brought up the issue that 0.0 needs farms and fields. That's a given, regardless of what we do in w-space. Next, "wormhole stablization" is a vague term that doesn't accurately express the idea at all. The structure doesn't allow for ease of traveling because the structure limits the amount of ships that can pass through. For example:

Say wormhole A opens up in 0.0. For the sake of argument you can jump 15 man t3 gang all at once. This makes the wormhole become instable so that the next time you jump your 15 man group, it falls apart. The structure regenerates the wormhole, but only to the point where you can jump in 5 of your ships every few hours. Too many and you spike the wormhole and falls apart regardless of the structure.

This allows small number of ships to pass through over an extended period of time. The added perk of allowing w-space pick where the wormhole opens up allows w-space to stay relevant. There is no "ease of movement" there is only an ease of which w-space can affect k-space, not the other way around. See if for what it is, not what you think it is.



Again, I repeat myself, your ideas are awful. You ignore the fact that w-space would be helped by more populated, more active and healthier null sec. You ignore the fact that being able to chose your exit, even in null sec, will make supply runs easier. You ignore that fact that choosing your exit will create w-space/null alliances that keep opening same connection to their staging system. You ignore the fact that w-space is suppose to be random, ever shifting and most of us actually like it that way. You ignore the concept of Opportunity Cost, where CCP has to assign developers to implement a device that most of w-space does not want or they can spend time tweaking issues that actually need to be addressed in w-space.

Your idea is bad because it is not fleshed out, you throw out vague numbers and concepts that fluctuate between posts. You are not even part of us anymore, you have stayed in a group that left our habitat, abandoned it and yet still hopes to influence or change it. No sir, you do not speak for us, you do not speak at all, you just make noise.
Duke Wendo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2014-02-21 21:20:13 UTC
I'm all for being able to threaten null sec 'farms' but every idea is shot down in flames here (granted the majority of them are terribad but even the semi- good ones are all dismissed before anyone even considers or discusses them like people who want to improve the game play)

So back on topic:

Everyone in w-space wants something different and whatever CSM you choose to vote for they won't implement your ideas because they aren't that far up on the CCP food chain.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2014-02-21 21:40:59 UTC
Duke Wendo wrote:
I'm all for being able to threaten null sec 'farms' but every idea is shot down in flames here (granted the majority of them are terribad but even the semi- good ones are all dismissed before anyone even considers or discusses them like people who want to improve the game play)

So back on topic:

Everyone in w-space wants something different and whatever CSM you choose to vote for they won't implement your ideas because they aren't that far up on the CCP food chain.



Or lets drop all pretense and have a conversation about ideas and CCP. CCP is not exactly known for their full implementation of features. The in game killmails are still missing CHA items if you try to copy them. The CREST implementation is like the Flying Dutchman, those who have seen it have gone insane. Walk in stations was abandoned though at player request. The DUST-EvE implementation has been going on for a year. The CSMA fix is not anywhere in sight. CCP is not even talking about POS changes anymore.

Yes, they have made other improvements and implemented other features but the way CCP behaves is like a child with an attention deficit disorder, jumping from feature to feature. So yeah, most of us want our representatives to focus on smaller issues and once we get them we can talk about massive changes that would forever alter the face of w-space.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#90 - 2014-02-21 21:57:09 UTC
I still can't believe anyone even brings up the "wormhole stabalizer" idea in a serious, non trolling manner. I won't even smash that idea to pieces, as it's been done plenty of times in this thread already. Anyone who has any time invested in wormhole understands why it's a terrible idea. That should tell you something.

Also, just because people disagree with bad ideas doesn't mean they have no interest in improving gameplay. To even make that assertion is silly.

No trolling please

Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#91 - 2014-02-21 22:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Chitsa Jason
J3rz11 wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:

It is very sad for me that you try to get the idea of how I organize operations based of one soundcloud. It though understandable as that thing is the most public thing I have ever achieved ever.

I have great respect for HK and their input to wormhole space promotion as it is. Even further every time I am at work I check cap kills on evekill and HK are the ones who usually surprise me. So kudos


First off, i didnt base my opinion off of the soundcloud....i was at your meeting, I've also listen to you run off these ideas on comms on multiple occasion too.

Also, out of curiosity, i joined on of your 'bobisgreat' fleets. you spent 1-2 hours preaching your ideas of a unified WH space against null. Then it toke another hour for you to move said fleet through LS before ultimately accomplishing nothing.

I got nothing again the idea of doing community activities, thats a great thing, especially for the smaller/newer groups. But just stop trying to label them as 'the way to put WH space on the map.' I admire your ambition as a person to make WH space better and more attractive. I just think your looking at it all wrong, but that''s just my personal opinion.


It is obvious that I do mistakes. I am no perfect man like The Mittani so I do try and try and try various configurations. It is also obvious that I have to rethink the way I do it. I do admit that I was too arrogant to "put wspace on the map". I do try to learn from my own mistakes but sometimes my megalomaniac character gets me :) I am not ashamed to see mine past mistakes and I do not hold grudges against people who do not like me.

PS.

Wormhole stabilizer in any way never gonna happen as long as I am on CSM.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#92 - 2014-02-21 22:48:02 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
Duke Wendo wrote:
I'm all for being able to threaten null sec 'farms' but every idea is shot down in flames here (granted the majority of them are terribad but even the semi- good ones are all dismissed before anyone even considers or discusses them like people who want to improve the game play)

So back on topic:

Everyone in w-space wants something different and whatever CSM you choose to vote for they won't implement your ideas because they aren't that far up on the CCP food chain.



Or lets drop all pretense and have a conversation about ideas and CCP. CCP is not exactly known for their full implementation of features. The in game killmails are still missing CHA items if you try to copy them. The CREST implementation is like the Flying Dutchman, those who have seen it have gone insane. Walk in stations was abandoned though at player request. The DUST-EvE implementation has been going on for a year. The CSMA fix is not anywhere in sight. CCP is not even talking about POS changes anymore.

Yes, they have made other improvements and implemented other features but the way CCP behaves is like a child with an attention deficit disorder, jumping from feature to feature. So yeah, most of us want our representatives to focus on smaller issues and once we get them we can talk about massive changes that would forever alter the face of w-space.


Gnaw. Believe me in my ******* devine honesty. I am trying to do my best what I can about it

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

J3rz11
Suddenly Carebears
#93 - 2014-02-21 22:51:45 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:

PS.

Wormhole stabilizer in any way never gonna happen as long as I am on CSM.


this i can back =)
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#94 - 2014-02-21 22:54:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Chitsa Jason
So for you guys who are still gonna post in this thread please remember that you can always contact me via these means:

Skype: Kasparas Jasiukenas
Twitter: @ChitsaJason
Email: Casparas@gmail.com

Please remember I am not running for second term so I do not really care about publicity or CCP view on me. I can spew your random ideas the way you think it is right.

Im going to sleep o/

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#95 - 2014-02-21 23:05:19 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:

Again, I repeat myself, your ideas are awful. You ignore the fact that w-space would be helped by more populated, more active and healthier null sec. You ignore the fact that being able to chose your exit, even in null sec, will make supply runs easier. You ignore that fact that choosing your exit will create w-space/null alliances that keep opening same connection to their staging system. You ignore the fact that w-space is suppose to be random, ever shifting and most of us actually like it that way. You ignore the concept of Opportunity Cost, where CCP has to assign developers to implement a device that most of w-space does not want or they can spend time tweaking issues that actually need to be addressed in w-space.

Your idea is bad because it is not fleshed out, you throw out vague numbers and concepts that fluctuate between posts. You are not even part of us anymore, you have stayed in a group that left our habitat, abandoned it and yet still hopes to influence or change it. No sir, you do not speak for us, you do not speak at all, you just make noise.



"You ignore the fact that w-space would be helped by more populated, more active and healthier null sec."

How am I ignoring it when my first post dealt SPECIFICALLY with this and stated that 0.0 needs farms and fields? Are you even reading?

"You ignore the fact that being able to chose your exit, even in null sec, will make supply runs easier."

Choosing your exist for supply runs is kind of hard of we severely limit the type/size of ship that can jump through. I've stated this over and over again that we can tweek what can or cannot jump through so that these sort of things do not happen.

"You ignore that fact that choosing your exit will create w-space/null alliances that keep opening same connection to their staging system."

Yes I've thought of that too. But the wormhole "regenerator" limits the size and number of ships that can jump at any time. So at any time you won't have your forces fully competent in w-space or k-space.

"You ignore the fact that w-space is suppose to be random, ever shifting and most of us actually like it that way."

And that's fine for the most part but the fact remains that a w-space entity can not consistently project its forces well enough to matter to anyone but w-space. I'd like to see wormholers as more than just a "once in a while" annoyance to 0.0 entities.

"You ignore the concept of Opportunity Cost, where CCP has to assign developers to implement a device that most of w-space does not want or they can spend time tweaking issues that actually need to be addressed in w-space. "

So far everything you've said leads me to believe you're having a very hard time comprehending the idea proposed. All i'm hearing is "wormhole stablizer = making w-space into 0.0, we don't like that!" When in truth i'm suggesting an idea that seeks to empower w-space to be more relevant and actually affect k-space.

"Your idea is bad because it is not fleshed out, you throw out vague numbers and concepts that fluctuate between posts. You are not even part of us anymore, you have stayed in a group that left our habitat, abandoned it and yet still hopes to influence or change it. No sir, you do not speak for us, you do not speak at all, you just make noise."

It's hard to think of it as fleshed out when you don't even read it. Numbers for examples are there as place holders. That's not a difficult concept to grasp. And please the whole "higher than thou" elitist smug wormhole attitude "you are no longer part of us" is a joke. Nobody cares. W-space is decaying and instead of considering ways to improve that you're just being thick because I happen to be part of an alliance you're upset at.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2014-02-21 23:33:47 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
W-space is decaying
People not knowledgable about wspace parroting people burnt out on wspace do not make it true.

If you want to have your opinions and ideas on politics and mechanics of wspace taken seriously by the community, then, pretty please, either come live here or at least talk to various people who are actually active in here. Unless you are willing to do that, please stick to commenting on nullsec and bombers. Because up til now youve been making it very clear with each post that you actually have no idea what youre talking about and all your "knowledge" of wspace is second-hand at best, sketchy and extremely biased, fringe and one-sided.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#97 - 2014-02-21 23:51:26 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
W-space is decaying
People not knowledgable about wspace parroting people burnt out on wspace do not make it true.

If you want to have your opinions and ideas on politics and mechanics of wspace taken seriously by the community, then, pretty please, either come live here or at least talk to various people who are actually active in here. Unless you are willing to do that, please stick to commenting on nullsec and bombers. Because up til now youve been making it very clear with each post that you actually have no idea what youre talking about and all your "knowledge" of wspace is second-hand at best, sketchy and extremely biased, fringe and one-sided.


There's no real politics in w-space. It's high school cheerleading drama and nobody cares except the 15 year old girls with daddy issues. So that's as far as that goes. Mechanics wise concerning my ideas, I've already explained it so simply that a child could understand how many of the concerns presented are a non issue. I don't really care. You can ignore a good idea and sulk in the irrelevance that you already are. Doesn't make much of a difference to me.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#98 - 2014-02-22 00:04:45 UTC
As a supposed Hellenophile, you don't do them much justice. Thanks for proving my point.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2014-02-22 00:05:20 UTC
You are just repeatedly reinforcing my point about you not being even close to knowledgable enough about wspace to reasonably comment on it. You are regurgitating the same false stuff thats been spoon-fed to you be people who dont live in wspace and were never part of the community even when they used to live there.

I actually liked some of your articles about nullsec, so I really dont see why are you closeminded and selfrighteous about wspace. For example I know very little about sov warfare or industry, so I refrain from overly commenting on it and telling others how they ought to do things. I, for some reason, expected similar self-critical attitude from you. Instead you are shockingly arrogant in your ignorance.
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#100 - 2014-02-22 00:06:12 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
As a supposed Hellenophile, you don't do them much justice. Thanks for proving my point.


You didn't make a point.

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